Biltong's Campaign Rules - Cont.

[SuperSulo]

Eden, did you think I was a grog or something?! I know nothing about WWII, dates, equipment and so on. I just try to make the campaign fun(nier) to play. If I don't like or agree on something I change it. Simple as that, there are no historic reason behind any of my changes (since I don't know the history), I just change it so I will like it better.

I just realized you weren't here from the beginning, right? Many of the things you had to "drag" out of me had already been said in some other thread, that's why I didn't say it out straight, I thought you knew most of it already but just needed a small nudge in the right direction.

And many things (well, some, or at least one...) I was wrong about, those Air pts that I turned to arty, that was completely wrong by the rules, as it turns out. From the "not fixed yet" in the update document:

8. Investigate Arty/Air – time for air (include dawn, but not dusk); Allied armor more likely to get air; Ax assault etc modifiers pushing points too high; If you get Air you don’t get any arty etc.

More proof that I have no idea what I'm saying. But my change/"rule reading" made sense to me, so I just used that and thought everybody else did too.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

Another (oh no!) thought about experience gain:

HQ units. Their main task is to lead the squads/MG's/mortars, right? Not to kill infantry or tanks. So, they really should get experience from how their squads are doing, not just their own accomplishments.

You know I'm right.

But ok, lets drop it, KISS and make up (out?). I'll see if I will MiG it in my rules.

LOL And what about the Tanks? It's his Battle Group - he should get experience for tank kills as well heh heh..

Just had a thought.. whoever is going to do the Grog version will need hair all over... not just on his teeth... can you imagine the arguments with everyone wanting their pet rules included... How is he going to draw the line?

If he doesn't it will take 3 days to roll up a battle. :eek:

I've got a feeling that I'll give that job a miss

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

Eden, did you think I was a grog or something?!

I don't think I assumed one way or t'other, but...

And many things (well, some, or at least one...) I was wrong about, those Air pts that I turned to arty, that was completely wrong by the rules, as it turns out.

...to the rest of the post- sure, sure, sure! I get it! Well I think it's good that we unearthed that one- the rules viz a/a are being clarified, at least... But I swear your interrogation is over- you're free to return to your own lines.

Eden

[History Buff]

Heres an Idea to get around the hassels of point diff etc and the fact you can't change individual squad's exp in a QB. Create a scenario. Let the computer design the map and place the soviet units. You can do everything down to the exact pt cost you rolled etc. Only prob i you have to pick the soviet forces by hand which means you know what your up against.

Should we lobby BFC to allow indidual squad exp selection in a QB or auto generate force in a scenario?

Hehehehe

[Apache]

Having played a few times using the options I refer to above I shall definitely be sticking with them (at least for time being). I don't use the modifiers as we originally re-modelled them, just use them to bulk up the Aux Forces on assault, attack and probe and use the scrounged points to buy what I consider to be 'historical' for a battle group with the task in hand, sort of a wild card purchase. Dispenses with scrounged unit experience etc. which I also like.

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Biltong:

Tue 24th v1.5 comes out with:

"Note 14 - Date

.... If this battle is not a Counter Attack/Assault you can trade in 30 points of Favor to alter the die by a maximum of 1.

If this battle is an Immediate Attack/Assault you can trade in 50 points of Favor to alter the die by a maximum of 1...."

[snip]

BTW Time also has:

"Can trade in 20 points of Favor to alter die by maximum of 1....

In the case of Immediate/Counter Attack/Assault Time cannot be altered by Favor."

So this reads that in the cases of I/C A/A, one can alter the *date*, but not the *time*? Is this really what is meant? The battle could be postponed 24 hours, but not postponed 18 hours...?

Eden

[86smopuim]

Originally posted by History Buff:

Heres an Idea to get around the hassels of point diff etc and the fact you can't change individual squad's exp in a QB. Create a scenario. Let the computer design the map and place the soviet units. You can do everything down to the exact pt cost you rolled etc. Only prob i you have to pick the soviet forces by hand which means you know what your up against.

Should we lobby BFC to allow indidual squad exp selection in a QB or auto generate force in a scenario?

Hehehehe

I do something like this.

I go to scenario editor, add my forces, at exact experience/squad.

Make the map size decent for the rolled battle size.

auto generate the map. adjust setupzones and flags to be realsitc places.

save as a QB.

got to quick battle, then load from file and "import troops" yes.

U have to bump the soviet handicap to make up for your extra 600 odd points.

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by 86smopuim:

I go to scenario editor, add my forces, at exact experience/squad.

86, ( H Buff too?), you can use the *same exact file every time*! It sounds like you make a new one, 86? I just go into my scenario, "Campaign 01 Kore.cme"... Maybe this time I have to bump one squad up in experience, (or down ), maybe delete a halftrack I lost... If I got some scrounged unit I would add it here, permanently. Then like you say, generate a *new* map, save & exit, and then proceed with the QB...

Using that same exact file every time, my guys are even *** in formation *** !!! Yes! Gawd, anything is better than that stupid police lineup! At least my core is always in proper formation, with their kool names, ready to go...

Hey, what's "Smallwood" in German, you guys? Anybody know? And don't tell me it's Sch*kopf, please. But Co HQ "Hpt Smallwood" is starting to look a little funny to me in the games...

U have to bump the soviet handicap to make up for your extra 600 odd points.

Or if you Allow Human you can buy the exact amount of aux you should have, if you did the math right.

Eden

[SuperSulo]

Eden,

"your interrogation is over" - Thanks, I was getting a cold sweat. But that doesn't mean the discussion is over, right?

Oh and that date/time error will be fix today.

Smallwood = Kleinwald in german

[Biltong]

MAJOR ACTIONS

Apache

The points you roll up may actually not allow you to have a very big force at all if you roll up Amour or Mech if using those axis parameters (need to check)? Scheduled

Andy Bass

Have a 'major action' die roll. On a 1-7 do nothing. On an 8-9, set a

Task Force-multiplier to 2x. On a 10 set a Task Force-multiplier to 3x.

Use appropriate modifiers for dates when major operations were

taking place.

When rolling up Task force multiply by the Task Force-multiplier.

Also, set a minimum value of 200 in each category if using a 2x

multiplier and 300 minimum if using a 3x multiplier. This can result in

battles quite a bit bigger than normal and also insures that major

operations have a decent amount of stuff from each category. Scheduled

Any ideas anyone? E.g.: How many points per category would you like (min/max)?

Want to tackle this one t’morrow

Biltong

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

But that doesn't mean the discussion is over, right?

Course not- how could it be over when I want to gloat about being the first(?) to have Italians! They wasted no time- came over to help me on the first day they were available...

On the 'work' side, for the thread: Two things which might simplify matters, for Biltong's concerns about complexity, from emails he's had, these might help at least a bit:

1) Why not just roll "# of Days" for next battle? Does it matter? Would that be simpler for noobs looking at the rules, or just simpler? If die result wraps around Day, then increment Week; if Week wraps around, then increment Month...?

2) Why not just one roll/one table to determine Aux Size? I'm still failing to grok why we need a separate roll per category...? The method is a complication, which often enough gives you 600 pts of Armor, only to find that the QB won't let you buy *any* armor...?

I'm there was a reason for it when introduced; how about a SimpleAuxRoll (among other things), in "*** BCR Lite ***"...?

Smallwood = Kleinwald in german

Omigod. That sounds like something to bang on with a bronze mallet during Oktoberfest...

Eden

[ December 21, 2002, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Eden Smallwood ]

[Apache]

Major Action

I think this needs to vary dependant on the task. Having thrown in a few of my own at times I found one of the most important things was the the fact that your company is ordered either to be part of the Assault Element (AE), either spearheading for it or by being part of the main atacking force, or covering the Support by Fire mission (SBF) to the main force. Maybe they will, if lucky, even be batallion reserve, being used to plug gaps if any appear or just getting sent into towns etc. to mop up once the objectives have mainly been achieved. This prevents players always keeping their core nice and safe. I use this 'order' generator for both the infantry and the AFVs that make up my core (each being rolled separately, e.g. one roll for the inf coy and one for my Stug platoon).

I have kept mine quite simple using the type of action as a guide. I roll up for whether the MA is an assault, attack or probe. The possibility of such an event is rolled for all the battles between 5-12 but it can only happen once, you then get a minimum of 5 battles clear. I have not got round to thinking about MEs and certainly not yet the defence side of things, next rules maybe for the edefence? Anyway, some general points of mine re assault, attack and probe:

Assault - I generally use btn strength infantry, perhaps some engineers too and maybe one company of infantry extra (allows for core to be reserve if needed). They are supported normally by 1-3 platoons of tanks etc. and some good arty. (AFAIK using a company of tanks per company of infantry is representative of panzer division deployment levels, not pure inf.). The biggest I had (IIRC) was 2 batallions of infantry and a company of tanks + a BIG arty support and other 'bits and pieces'.

Attack - I tend to reduce the tanks by 1-2 platoons, and dilute the arty a little. May be some more infantry and the odd assault gun etc.

For both attack and assault I sometimes vary the use or armored infantry batallions with the various H/Ts etc.

Probe: Again possibly Bn level BUT light recon vehicles tend to replace the tanks (except my core and that is Stugs anyway). Usually I opt for a mix of light and heavy A/Cs and throw in a few HMGs to represent the heavily armed and aggressive German recon outfits. I tend to set them higher on the expereince scale too, Vet normally.

In all above cases I apply the modifiers to the extra units only (not core) and do not roll for Aux forces.

I will often use towns and cities for these actions (less so with probes) and have been trying to work out a way to have pre-determined and pre-purchased soviet set-ups for this, so you get a human designed Soveit defence. I'm not sure if you can start as a PBEM, mail it to someone to set up the soviet side and then save the scenario and play as single player? I sometimes find the AI does not position fortifications and defence assets to well.

[ December 22, 2002, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

Major Action

I think this needs to vary dependant on the task.... .

Sounds like Fun!

Now, how do I put that into rules :eek: Near impossible?

You are using BCR as it should be done - modify to your hearts content

...I will often use towns and cities for these actions (less so with probes) and have been trying to work out a way to have pre-determined and pre-purchased soviet set-ups for this, so you get a human designed Soveit defence. I'm not sure if you can start as a PBEM, mail it to someone to set up the soviet side and then save the scenario and play as single player? I sometimes find the AI does not position fortifications and defence assets to well.

I haven't tried that combo yet, but I doubt it will work... Would be nice to get a solution to this problem... One way is for the map maker to employ lots of small maps on a lot of small tactically important set up zones. This might help, but you'll still get trenches in weird places.

Pain in the arse, this problem.

[Apache]

Sounds like Fun!

Now, how do I put that into rules Near impossible?

May not be too hard:

1) Roll for action type first

2) Roll for force size (purchase points) 1500, 2000, 2500 etc. Then apply modifiers to the result (less cost of your core). No Aux in these scenarios, hence larger force sizes.

3) Role for your role: 1-2 = Spearhead; 3-6 = part of main force; 7-9 = SBF; 10 = Diversionary action; 10> = Reserve

Then ratio/force type (leaving it much more to the player - indeed this may encourage those who wish to to learn more about the correct/effective use of the right tools for the right job):

If assault: 1-3 = 40%/40%/20% inf/armour/arty; 4-8 = 50%/30%/20%; 9-10 = 60%/20%/20%; 10> = 80%/-/20% (all inf + support)

If attack: 1 = 50%/40%/10%; 2-8 = 60%/30/10%, 9 = 80%/10/10%/ armour; 9> = No armour/10-20% arty.

Probe: Similar but restrict to infantry more and a bias towards scout type AFVs etc. (Recon Coy + A/Cs). Less/no arty (except S/P on map). More HMGs/vehicles.

This may benefit from KISS. Those who wish to can ensure they get the balance right by applying their knowledge of battle group use etc. Those who do not just get the benefit of having a big battle with quite a lot more units every now and then.

I use a random role (rather than favour - this ain't my beef) to allow me to alter up or down by between 5-10% each of the categories: 1 = 3 categories by up to 10%; 2-3 = up to 2 cats by 10%; 4-6 = 1 cat 10%; 5-7 = 3 cats 5%; 8-9 2 cats 5%; 10 = 1 cat 5%; 10> - zilch. Need to give this more thought - VERY early days of development.

May even be worth doing one side of A4 in terms of an 'Idiots Guide to what you are likely to see/not see in terms of German troop/armour mix).

[ December 22, 2002, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Apache]

Time for some discreet marketing?

[Apache]

Double post - deleted.

[ December 22, 2002, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

Time for some discreet marketing?

Apache,

This could be the 1st BCR MOD ... Still not to clear how players will search/find and 'attach'/'incorporate' MODS.

Yours could be a test case...

Marketing will be key:

What; Benefits; How; Easy Incorporation etc.

Very keen to see how this develops... We might end up with multiple Mod campaigns running parallel to BCR, catering for a variety of tastes.

But it will need someone with a bit of balls to create the 1st MOD and start the ball rolling (so to speak)

Some Ideas:

What will it do differently to BCR.

Benefits to the player: more Realism? Variety?

How: A summary of what will be involved (10 extra rolls & 2 extra pages gives you:…?)

This and that will fall away, and basically we will do this & that. (I don’t think it’s necessary to show the actual rules)

Incorporation:

Simple Intro Doc with

Replace BCR p. X with p. Y and BCR Sheet A with Sheet B

New p. Y might contain a reference to new Notes 20, 21 and 22…

etc etc

Hope this helps

Biltong

[History Buff]

This is a last effort effort plea.....

Anyone still have V1.3 Core Sheet, and rules sheet in .pdf format. If you do can you please email it to me.

I just wanna finish the first 5.5 mths in the same version.

Thanks in advance

email: themob@vianet.net.au

[Apache]

History Buff,

V 1.3 in the mail.

Sorry HB. Only just saw you wanted pdf. I sent Excel version

[ December 23, 2002, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Apache]

Hi Biltong,

Not really suggesting the above as a whole set of parallel rules, mainly as an answer as to how we might tackle the major action occurrence. I could have a go at making the above a bit more formal (e.g a Rule 57 or whatever) but I need some time to do that. No time at at all now, what with Xmas etc. Will keep an eye on things here and have a go at a 'major action' rule when I get chance (if u like).

[SuperSulo]

History Buff, I have it in excel format only, if that will do...

EDIT: oops, Apache's post weren't there when I read the thread... Ignore this

[ December 23, 2002, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: SuperSulo ]

[Biltong]

Thread nearly full guys - take it here:

BCR new thread