Biltong's Campaign Rules - Cont.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Mad Mobeus:

Biltong eh?....Hehehe...i KNOW what that is....Heck I've even had some . Man, I was born in Cape Town but I live in Canada now and I havent been back in like 32 years...*sigh* . But ANYHOW Biltong...Youre doing a GREAT JOB man keep it up.

Mad Mobeus

Had some heh?

Mmmm Cape Town ... You must come and visit again... more beautifull than ever... Summer is here, the beaches are full and the weather is perfect... sitting here in my shorts with all the doors and windows open to catch the sea breeze...

Better not come - you'll stay

Thanx for the encouragement...

Biltong

[Apache]

Just tested the Auto-Favor sheet and it seems to be working fine now. Will do a couple of manual comparison runs tomorrow and post results (which will probably be OK).

One other point, I scored a 'Minor victory' on a battle yesterday. Are we saying that is the same as a 'Tactical victory' in the results calc? Can't find mention of it in the rules which infers you get no points for it (either that or i've read them so many times now I just can't see it) :confused:

Have only just got round to playing the maps. Playing one at moment, excellent.

[ December 03, 2002, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

Just tested the Auto-Favor sheet and it seems to be working fine now. Will do a couple of manual comparison runs tomorrow and post results (which will probably be OK).

One other point, I scored a 'Minor victory' on a battle yesterday. Are we saying that is the same as a 'Tactical victory' in the results calc? Can't find mention of it in the rules which infers you get no points for it?

Thanx Apache - you're a Star!

Yep - tactical = minor - just as in Nukes

[Apache]

No problem. Good move on the flat map chances i think. However, fully accept a good designers flat map will be a different 'animal' to the auto generated ones.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

No problem. Good move on the flat map chances i think. However, fully accept a good designers flat map will be a different 'animal' to the auto generated ones.

heh heh - Might do a couple myself

Just discovered Big Dogs map pack - 56 maps - a lot of usefull ones there for us... I think quite soon we won't be using the QB maps at all anymore..

More about that later

Off to bed - G'night!

Biltong

[ December 03, 2002, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Sten]

Hmm, maybe I am playing this the wrong way?

In the aux generating QB the computer randomly selected all Crack units, why all it could afford for it's 800 points were a pioneer Co, 2 LMGs, a flamethrower and a 81mm spotter.

My aux force is 175p inf/sup and 80p vehicles.

I now go to 56 in the rules and roll for what experience these troops will really have. I rolled 5, so they're all green.

I now generate the real battle. When buying units I note that a green pioneer platoon costs >200 points, so I can't buy that. The only things left are the 2 LMGs and the FT. So I buy them, about 45 points total.

What should I do with my remaining 130 points in this category?

a) Buy other inf/sup stuff.

Leave them alone.

[Apache]

Hi Biltong,

Favor sheets seem fine. There is one issue that's been pointed out so I won't repeat. One thing did occur to me though when I was running through some manual sheets. The layout at the moment begs you to fill in the numbers knocked out against the '2 x' for instance in the box below unit type. This still leaves the player to either calculate the total per unit and scribble it elsewhere on the sheet or try a 'in the head' calculation as you go through. Would the layout of the sheet not be improved by putting the 1x, 2x 4x 10x etc. in the box with the unit type in question, leaving the box underneath blank for the total to be filled in? Players could then just tot the lot up easier IMO. Not all will want to use auto sheets.

One other point, I've been meaning to mention it for ages, I can't see when looking at rule 1 what the June -3 etc. relates too? I can see that you roll for the weeks/months/days advances in the other sections but the month modifiers in rule 1 baffle me entirely? I've propbably read them so much now I've confused myself.

[ December 04, 2002, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[SuperSulo]

Sten, you should use the correct setting for Quality when you do the Auto QB, not Random or Unrestricted. Use the 56 Normal Replacement and Appendix A to see what Experience Level you should use.

I know, this isn't very clear from reading the rules, it even says "Always use unrestricted" somewhere. Even I am not sure what to do, but what I said above seems to work for me. I'm sure it will be corrected/cleared up sometime soon .

And regarding your actual question, the answer is a), buy whatever inf/support you can afford with the rest of the points in that category. Just be sure to use the same division as what you rolled up for you aux force.

[SuperSulo]

Apache, those June -3 etc just makes the time go (possible) slower in those months, ie more battles. With a -3 on the first roll in June, the possible outcome is:

(die shows) 1-8 : Just days until next battle

(die shows) 9-10: 1-2 weeks until next battle

[Max BrauHaus]

...you should use the correct setting for Quality when you do the Auto QB, not Random or Unrestricted. Use the 56 Normal Replacement and Appendix A to see what Experience Level you should use.

We may need Biltong's expert knowledge to step in here. I use the rolled Quality in the QB setup, and then buy them that way in the actual battle (so in your case I would buy crack troops). Left over points, I use to buy whatever I want in that area.

I thought rule 56 was the experience of troops coming in as replacements to your Core. So you might get lucky and get some Green replacements (10 exp.) instead of all Conscript (0 exp.). I don't use this rule during battle generation, only during experience calculation.

[Apache]

Regarding the auto-favor sheets, following sent to Pascal:

I checked the early/late versions of the rules and AFAIK the values have stayed the same.

If you either lose or or draw the auto-favor sheet works fine, taking the correct values from the right hand side, as per the original 'manual' version.

If however you win, the auto sheet still uses the same values. On the manual sheet the values for a won battle are slightly different though (e.g. KO Axis tank if you win = -8x whereas a KO Axis Tank if you lose = -9X).

SueprSulo - Thx. All clear now. Couldn't fathom that from the sheets.

Sten - I do the same as Supersulo. I set the Aux QB Generator to the level rolled up for Aux units and note what comes up then set the QB to unrestricted and buy the Aux Forces of the type/level set by the QB. Core can then be picked as per their experience gain.

[ December 04, 2002, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Biltong]

IMPORTANT

Experience Gain Problem / Solution

I think this is the last real big ‘un and Claude McDaniel came up with this one:

“Here are some additional thoughts. Disregard them if they are out of line

as I have NO real world documentation to back the following comments up.

It is possible under the rules to go from "Green" to "Crack" long before

Christmas '41. In my readings of CMBB and CMBO, the authors tended to

believe that skill level advancements did not happen very quickly. So why

not add seasoning time to the mixture in computing the speed of a unit's

experience gain?

In this proposal, units accumulate experience points normally until they

reach that needed for the next experience level. Then they stop gaining

experience until enough time passes for the unit to absorb and incorporate

this learning into its behavior (signified by the advancement to the next

skill level). Once at the next level, the unit again accumulates experience

points normally till it reaches the next trigger point.

Once a unit has enough points for the next level, it is on "Hold" for

further experience point gains till it actually acquires the new level.

While on Hold, at the beginning of each week (Item 1 in Campaign Rules), the

player checks to see if the unit internalizes it's gained combat knowledge

and progresses on. To check for success, compare the number of weeks the

unit is on Hold to a ten sided die roll. If the Hold value is greater than

twice the die roll, then the unit gains the new experience level.

Otherwise, increase the Hold value by one and check again the following

week.

As an example, at the beginning of a week a Green unit was on Hold for five

weeks.

If the player rolls a two or less on a ten sided die, the unit becomes a

Regular. If the player rolled a three or better, then the (still) Green

unit checks again the following week.

This modification requires an additional column on the Core sheet, entitled

"Hold". The player leaves it blank until the unit reaches an experience

gain trigger point. At that time, the player places an "X" in the box. At

the beginning of the following game week, the player puts a "1" in the boxes

marked with an "X" from the previous week, and increases the value by one

for those units on Hold that did not advance a level.

While on Hold, compute the experience points normally (including

replacements). If the net result is a gain in experience points, do not

record the new value. If however, the end result is a loss in experience,

then record that new value. A unit may (through panic, low grade

replacements, and what not) lose enough experience points to drop below that

needed to gain a level. In that case, remove the value from the Hold column

for that unit, and record experience changes as usual. If the player

advances the calendar over several weeks between battles, then make multiple

checks for the eligible units.”

Any better ideas?... any faults in the logic above?... a simpler way?... disect & discuss... this problem has bugged me from the old old rules and I would love to fix it

BTW Guys,

Claude McDaniel is the real ‘unsung’ hero on the BCR team. He started out as the ‘language expert’ – trying to clear up my muddled mumblings, but recently he has evolved into a ‘Logic/Modifier Expert’. I tremble when I get his weekly e-mail(s)… He has razor sharp eyes for logic faults and there are a hell of a lot of them – just have a look at coming Fridays Update Doc :eek:

When he’s finished with these Rules (and me) they are really going to be bloody close to perfect.

TG he doesn’t post the faults on the board or no one will play them.

Claude, from all the guys using these rules

Can’t thank you enough, man

I see, there’s some questions etc above – sorry guys – hang on till the weekend – I’ve received over 100 maps! Got to check, list and pack as many of them as I can…

C’ya on the week-end

Biltong

[SuperSulo]

Max BrauHaus, what do you mean with :

"I use the rolled Quality in the QB setup" ?

What rolled Quality? The only that excist is for Allied.

I think I've read something about this... Ah yes, in "Note 7 - Generating the Real Battle" it says:

"The QB experience setting for the Auxiliaries and new Scrounged Units are calculated using a Random Number & modifiers in Normal Replacements (56)."

Yes, this is one of the "illogical" workflows that I think is going to be fixed, this information should also be under "Generate Aux Forces using Auto QB". Or why not just include a "Quality" table under the Axis Parameters, instead of "21 QUALITY Always "Unrestricted" "? Of course, then it have to tell the player to change to "Unrestricted" under "48 Generate Real Battle"... Hey it already does!

EDIT: Heh, I just noticed something else under Note 7 - Generating the Real Battle.

It says "Remember to choose the right Experience for all units. For your first battle your Core Force and Auxiliaries start out as Green". Should auxiliaries (I hate that word...) be green too? Why shouldn't that be rolled up as normal, just because it's the first battle?

[ December 04, 2002, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: SuperSulo ]

[Max BrauHaus]

SuperSulo - hmm, you are correct, sir!

I guess what I meant to say was that I set the QB to Unrestricted, then purchase my Core using the experience they should have (Green at the beginning) and then have bought the Aux. as the computer bought them - quality and all. So if the computer bought Crack, so did I. If there were points left over I bought what I wanted to, with different levels of quality if necessary.

Guess I missed the meaning of all of the rest of that stuff. Not the first time.

[Max BrauHaus]

I'd like to look into the use of Favor points to improve one's force.

The current model allows for the player to increase their points in one of the 4 or 5 areas for Aux. units based on a random roll. However, every increase the user pays for in Favor points, the AI also gets (because it is before the determination of the Force Size), so there is little value in using Favor in this way (IMHO). Also, sometimes the increase in points is only 20 for Inf/Support, which may only allow you to pick up a sharpshooter or flamethrower. When I think about how favor with your CO would have been used, I think about asking (begging?) that 1st platoon from Company C, or the heavy weapons platoon, be attached to your Company for whatever action you are going into. For vehicles and armor, I'd think the smallest unit would be a single tank, or maybe a pair of armored cars for recon.

What I'm looking at is use of Favor to allow you to purchase up to # of points allowed by the QB, after the force size is generated using the new rules. Every battle has some leeway in this area, for example, you are allowed to purchase up to 1720 points for an Axis Assault by the QB, but your rolled forces are only 1660. This would allow for up to 60 points used for Favor purchases. This amount will change for every battle - sometimes you'll have a lot of points left over, other times very few, reflecting the availability of forces on the front maybe.

Anyways, just a thought, and there is still a lot of balance to be thought out here. Any comments?

[SuperSulo]

Regarding that "Experience Gain Problem / Solution" Biltong posted above...

I don't know, it seems a bit complicated? I sure hope there's a simpler solution. I *think* it should be possible to solve this with just tweaking the Appendix tables and the amount of experience gained per battle. I really think we(you) have to change the experience gained per (average) battle, otherwise it will just postpone the problem with something like 11 weeks on average (average roll 5.5 times 2 = 11 weeks)?

Wow, 11 weeks! Is that correct? Would it really take 11 weeks on average to go from green to regular, *after* you have gained the required experience? That seems a bit long to me, I think a unit should become regular fairly quick, since they have "basic traning", but "little if any combat experience".

Oh and during this time (11 weeks) you will continue to battle, but don't get any experience, at least not any positive experience... Will that be fun? Or make players just skip/retreat from the battle just to make the weeks pass? Just thinking out loud here.

But I know, don't put something down unless you have a better solution yourself. Well, I don't but I really don't think the proposed solution is the best one. But I also know it's better than what we have now, at least it will take on average 11 * 3 = 33 weeks longer to go from green to crack. I just think it's wrong that the die should/could be such a big player on the time it takes to gain experience.

Here are some random thoughts I've had regarding experience:

</font>

• Why use two tables, in appendix a and b? Should be possible to have just one and instead tweak the experience gained for armor/big guns. Esp. now when the max gained exp. per battle is 10.
  </font>
• Should "Enemy Casualty" really be "+1 each"? I think this is the column that gives the most experience per battle, at least it has been for me. This column can get very high for some units, even squads (last battle I had a squad that did 47 casualties, and the PzIVE did 63, while the PzIIC only did 4, for instance). Maybe it should be just x exp. no matter how many you kill. Same for all other "+x each", I guess.
  I used to play a p&p RPG, where you only got 1 exp when you succeeded with a task, say hit someone with a sword (caused a casualty), no matter how many times after this you succeeded, you didn't get any more exp. until you had slept for 8 hours (next battle). I think that would work here for us as well, as it is now for Armor that knocks out for example a mortar, you only get +1, no matter how many you knock out (or is that a mistake in the rules, did Biltong simply forget to put "each" after all those "+x" for armor? I hope not ).
  </font>

I've had other thoughts regarding experience, some I've already nagged about in other posts, but these are the ones that relates to this issue.

Yes, lots of "think"'s and "should"'s... If I come up with something that I think works, I'll let you know

[SuperSulo]

Max, that favor buying stuff sounds good, worth looking into, as you said.

[Sardaukar]

Heh, there has been so many changes lately that I had to start my All Armour Core modifications over again Maybe I'll get something done during weekend..that is if I survive our Independece Day party tomorrow here in Finland

Cheers,

M.S.

[Sten]

I obviously wasn't very clear in my previous question.

Let me try again:

If I got 175 points to spend in a specific aux category and the QB generated four units costing 50, 50, 175 and 200 points, what can I then buy?

Do I have to choose the 175 unit to get as close to my purchase points as possible? I don't think so, but I'm asking just to make sure.

Assuming I don't have to buy the 175 unit, which of the below options should I use?

a- 50+50 and 75 of my choice.

b- 50+50 and 75 are lost.

Regarding Biltong's proposed solution to the experience gain problem, I don't think that is a viable solution. Here's why:

Squad 1 reaches 20 and would be put on hold. In the next battle it takes one casualty and the roll is <7 for replacements. This brings the squad down below the promotion threshold AND cancels the previous weeks on hold. The squad would now basically start all over. Repeat this ad nauseam since promotion of the whole core company would only happen if ALL units had been on uninterrupted hold for quite some time. This will never happen.

Or maybe I just misunderstood something about your idea?

[ December 05, 2002, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Sten ]

[Max BrauHaus]

Assuming I don't have to buy the 175 unit, which of the below options should I use?

a- 50+50 and 75 of my choice.

b- 50+50 and 75 are lost.

My opinion - a

[Apache]

I think the favour purchase is a good idea too. Given the purpose of favour it may be that if your CO thinks you are a particularly fine chap he may grant you # support (variable dependant on what was lilley to be about at that time of the offensive). For me, this would imply that the boss's feelings might warm towards you more as you got better and better. Therefore a spare platoon (if that) or a couple of MGs might be all you would get at first but, once you had established a track record of getting results a platoon of tanks might not be out of the question, not in every case though, only when you were really going to be up against it (esp if you were fighting a large point force with a lot of your points being made up of large arty/air).

[Biltong]

A Number of map makers have asked me for feedback when they submitted their maps for BCR's Map Add-On...

I've started compiling all my replies into a single doc... Hope it can be of some use to the designers.

MAP MAKING SUGGESTIONS FOR BCR V1.1

NAMING

You don’t have to include your name in the map name – it will be in the ‘Brief Description’ of the map as well as on the BCR Map List.

Please stick to the following Naming Convention to make it easier for everyone:

A unique name: Town or some combination name, e.g.: Balka, Shattered Woods, etc.

Followed by the Battle Type: Ax As or if the map has a multiple function: Ax AsAtPr.

Leave spaces between the elements for readability (except the AsAtPr)

E.g.: Balka Al Pr, Shady Stream Ax AsAtPr, Blood Hill ME

Please enter the Map Name and your name into the Brief Description box on the Parameter screen of the map editor, in the format:

Balka Axis As/At/Pr Designer: Manstein22

VARIATION BETWEEN MAPS

Vary your set-up zones, number and placement of flags for each map. If possible vary the reason for the flag position as well, e.g.: create/remove a hill/cluster of houses/farm/woods or whatever the reason was for placing the flag in the first place.

Relocate/remove/expand mayor features such as roads/large buildings/farms/clusters of houses and large fields

E.g.: Just by changing large fields into steppe, creating or removing a single road and changing the set-up zones and flags you have created a new map.

On the Allied As/At/Pr you can have the zones one N/W - E/S corners and with the Axis As/At/Pr on the opposite corners giving the player 2 different attack/defend terrain options.

Mix large and smaller (forward) zones.

The ideal is to modify the map for each Battle Type: Axis As; At; Pr…Allied As; At; Pr; and ME (7 in all).

The reason: A player conducting a Probe has less Purchase Points than the Assaulter and should have an easier go of it: E.g.: less flags that are ‘easier’ to reach. The Prober might/should also start out on a narrower front and (maybe) further forward than an attacker/assaulter… Defender of an Assault might need defence in depth, but could have more scattered defence for an attack or a ‘badly placed’ set-up zone on one side only for a probe.

If you vary the above points you will create 7 maps out of one in a far shorter time than it would take to create 7 new ones…. More maps for the guys to play with at little extra cost in time….

SETUP ZONES

Only use one colour set-up zone per side – It seems that the AI places all mines in one colour and all the trenches in the other etc… looks like it simply goes down the line from one side and places them in a single line and then skips to the next colour when the first colour is full.

EYE CANDY

Don’t forget hedges; fences; stonewalls – esp. to demarcate properties that are close to each other.

Ask yourself: Where would the farmer/home or factory owner have placed a border division?

Rough terrain/stone/trees on steep hillsides

Marsh/Scattered Trees/Woods in deep valleys.

The same type of vegetation/trees etc. tends to grow on the same side and height on hills/ridges.

Break straight lines – curve, zigzag, split. Interrupt lines with broken ground/woods etc. Be careful of making squares… fields, walls etc – make the next one at an angle and a different shape.

ROADS

Roads go somewhere – a town; a large farm cluster etc – they don’t just end nowhere.

When they go to a house they go to the front door.

Place some scattered trees along roads.

Roads follow the contours of the map – don’t charge up a steep hillside – go around it.

Straight roads are boring and unlikely – give them a kink and then add a reason for the kink: a farm, rough terrain, hill etc.

Paved roads are scarce.

Use ‘1’ and travel along your road to check that there isn’t any sudden steep inclines or that the road doesn’t ‘lean’ unrealistically on a hillside.

BUILDINGS

Large doubly story structures…? Especially in the rural areas of Russia in 41?

A lot of houses clustered together in a rural area with no fields to feed them?

Farms have fields, an orchard, flimsy outbuildings, fences and walls.

FLAGS

Provide realistic objectives (flag positions) – No-one is going to risk his men for a clump of woods with no tactical importance (no view).

When you have a crossroad with large house next to it, it is not the crossroad that needs to be taken, but the house overlooking it – place the flag on the house itself.

The question you must ask yourself is what feature do I need to control to control the immediate area.

REALISM

Watch out for dams/river sides that curl up at a hillside.

Don’t place fields on steep hillsides if there is flat terrain nearby.

BATTLE MAPS

Be very careful that you don’t force the AI to set up in an exposed position where it will be slaughtered in the opening rounds. Also provide cover for the advancing AI – hidden dips/ridges/hills/trees or at least scattered trees etc

There are also discussions & documents on some of the web sites re map design – when I have time I’ll try and incorporate then into this document.

As always – criticism/more ideas/feed back etc. – very welcome

Please use the board to add to this list.

Biltong

[ December 05, 2002, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Ichthys]

Regarding ways to limit the experience gain, my thought was that applying a diminishing returns modifier, like square root, to the experience would help out. So a squad that manages to inflict 4 casualties gets 2 pts, and one that manages 25 will get 5. Even truly massive amounts of damage inflicted would only result in 10-12 experience points gained. This gives a slight experience bonus to units having a really good round, while most units will slowly work their way up 2 or 3 points at a time.

-Andy

[Apache]

I've only played a couple of the map battles so far (too busy printing/reading rules/changes etc.) but I think the ones I have currently played from Manstein are first class. I think CMBB QB generator does a resaonable job mind, I just think the logic of where and how things are placed is a bit bizarre at time, esp if you start to involve towns etc.

[Biltong]

Friday … Time for the weekly BCR Update

Rules v1.3

The Rules now include the new Battle Type/Casualty Force modifier so that you don’t get screwed with Purchase Points when you are on the attack – Thanx to Max for a great ‘simple’ solution. A must download.

Lot of modifier refinements & a lot of rule clarifications – Claude McDaniel has been keeping me very busy – Sterling work Claude!

Update & Unresolved Issues v1.3

21 Issues has been addressed – 4 pages of modifier refinement/clarification/new rules etc…. The BCR Team has been very busy…

If you have a problem with one of the facets of the rules – have a look here and see if it is listed – if not post or e-mail me and it will be prioritized & investigated.

There are 31+ outstanding issues at the moment. Couple of important ones, such as: Unit Experience Gain (which is too fast) has already started – see posts above… In time we will get to all of them.

We are definitely into the fine tune mode… The rules are better than they have ever been before and the reason is simple: everyone is piling in reporting and helping to fix them…. :cool:

BCR Map Add-On v1.3 & Map Pack 1

12 NEW MAPS ADDED!

If you haven’t tried this add-on yet, give it a spin – it’s easy – no rule changes at all!

You are just missing out on some really great battles!

Manstein22 has been very busy!! In fact he sent me more, but I did not have time to do the rest (Next week there’ll be more).

Manstein gives us our first river crossing map: ‘Bridges’ – the setup zones are such that you don’t need extra forces, but it will still be a tough nut!!

I see Manstein is getting very good reviews Well deserved Man!!

This week’s map pack also features a new designer: Pete Wenman with ‘State Farm 131’ – a great map suitable for rural, farm and village.

The 12 maps should keep you busy till next week – I’ve got a hell of a lot of other maps to process – they are coming in fast, so you guys are in for a feast.

The Instructions have been simplified and the Map List expanded so that you can use Excel search to find what you need on: Map Name, Region, Year, Battle Type, Size, Map Type, Trees, Hills and Designer.

NEW! MAP MAKING SUGGESTIONS FOR BCR v1.1

I’ve had a lot of requests for feedback from the guys who sent me maps and I got behind doing each map, so (lazy bugger that I am), I’ve decided to clump all the feedback together into a doc for all the designers…. Have a look if you are interested in map design. It will tell you what BCR needs and give you some suggestions re making good battle maps. If you feel you have something to add – please do – post on the board and I’ll add the suggestion(s) to the doc.

The designers would also love some feedback on their maps from the player POV… let them have it – good or bad – the end result will be better maps for everyone!

Max’s Auto Parameters

Max has also been pretty busy keeping up with all the modifier changes as well as giving very valuable feedback on the rules. He writes:

“I have also included the basic beginnings of the After Battle Parameters. Basically just the random 1-10 rolls. The player still needs to evaluate the rolls properly. Hopefully by next week I'll get it all automated pretty-like!”

Pascal’s Auto Core is undergoing testing and should be launched quite soon.

As for everything – get it here from the worlds fastest web masters!!!!

Scooby and SuperSulo

That’s it folks...

From me & the BCR Team

Enjoy