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MacOS X 10.1 & CM


karsten

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Mac OS 10 is for people who enjoy computers and computing. Being an industrial designer Mac OS 10 does not help me one bit. If I did run it, I'd be using classic mode anyways so what the point. The interface is fun but I don't use a computer to enjoy the cool icons and dock. I use the mac as a tool although I tinker quite a bit that is its sole purpose. Mac OS 10 hinders my performance because I have to re-learn certain elements.

Please don't get upset because BTS isn't going to make CMBB X compatible. Apple hasn't even got the bugs out of this operating system, so why would BTS jump into something which really isn't all that tested.

Just my two cents.

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It does not surprise me that it won't and it annoyes me to no end that MadMatt and BTS feel that Apple is to blame for not letting them know ahead of time that Rave support was to be discontinued. "

It is easily Apples Blame. Apple never tells anything until it is almost to late.

"If they were licensed Apple Developers (and they SHOULD be, but I doubt they are) they would have been getting ALL the Apple developer updates and software ALL along and would also be eligble for Apple developer discounts on hardware purchases, and they woudl have known Rave was only a short term phenomenon."

Short term? Hasnt RAVE been around since At least OS8 possibly before? Thats is almost 4 years.

"But from my understanding of the BTS position they feel Apple just went ahead and dropped RAVE support and didn't let any body know it was coming."

That is what it sounds like. And this is no surprise Apple does this on a regular basis. Somehow I just think Steve Jobs is a sadomasochist master. Just sits back and loves to see how far he can push and punish the Mac community before they finally bolt. smile.gif

"I'd be happy to pay for an OS X version to be developed. Maybe they could get enough pre-orders for them to contract a couple other developers and do a port? "

I doubt they could get enough pre-orders. I have done some contracting work in the past that was much more simple. I was making close to 50 bucks and hour. On a project like this it is just out of the question even if thier contractor is working for 25 bucks an hour. And I dont think you want a contractor doing a job like this for 25 bucks an hour.

Just dual boot. I do it all the time with my Win2K\Win98 machine. It take a couple of minutes but it is worth the hassle.

Gen

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The classic rave extension will need to be disabled for CM to work in OS 9 (if you've put an OS X install over it). This extension is what Apple needs to fix for CM to work in classic under OS X. So, make sure to complain to Apple at the OS X feedback page.

As for switching rendering engines, The CM rendering engine had already started in RAVE when OpenGL was announced as the new standard. I remember seeing CM screenshots in late sumemr 98, and the OpenGL thing wasn't announced until early '99. At the time, BTS was still shooting for a '99 release at that time (I think), so the one programmer (Charles) spending a lot of time reworking the platform specific Mac renderer wouldn't have been the best use of time. This, obviously was made worse when the CM wasn't actually released until mid-year 2000.

With CM2 primarly being added units, with some game play changes (which is the platform independent code) it, again wouldn't make a lot of sense to spend time reworking the engine (when, a large majority of their Mac costumers probably do _not_ use OS X anyway).

Ben

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  • 2 weeks later...

>Mac OSX 10.1 comments? anything?

I hate it with a passion formerly reserved for Microsoft Windows smile.gif.

Mac OSX basically appears to me to be a WindowsMe clone that has been heavily modifed by a deranged cartoonist so as to better entertain dilettantes who only use their Macs for email and surfing the Internet.

I bought OSX 10.1 last week. So far I have not found anything useful that it adds to support my daily work use of the Mac. In fact user interface details that used to increase my productivity on the Mac have either disappeared or been so layered with eye candy and useless window decorations that they have become counterproductive.

I have a studio full of expensive peripheral equipment, none of which works under OSX.

I have thousands of dollars of recently purchased productivity software that does not work under OSX and hangs or crashes a dozen times per day under OS9.1 and 9.2.

Inquires to peripheral and software vendors about fixes and updates have been answered with either "we are not interested in supporting OSX" or an invitation to purchase a new piece of equipment or a software upgrade at upgrade prices 30 to 50% higher than earlier years.

I literally can not afford to continue messing around with OSX. It comes off of my computer today so that I can get back to productive use of my Mac tomorrow.

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MajorH:

>Mac OSX 10.1 comments? anything?

I hate it with a passion formerly reserved for Microsoft Windows smile.gif.

Mac OSX basically appears to me to be a WindowsMe clone that has been heavily modifed by a deranged cartoonist so as to better entertain dilettantes who only use their Macs for email and surfing the Internet.

I bought OSX 10.1 last week. So far I have not found anything useful that it adds to support my daily work use of the Mac. In fact user interface details that used to increase my productivity on the Mac have either disappeared or been so layered with eye candy and useless window decorations that they have become counterproductive.

I have a studio full of expensive peripheral equipment, none of which works under OSX.

I have thousands of dollars of recently purchased productivity software that does not work under OSX and hangs or crashes a dozen times per day under OS9.1 and 9.2.

Inquires to peripheral and software vendors about fixes and updates have been answered with either "we are not interested in supporting OSX" or an invitation to purchase a new piece of equipment or a software upgrade at upgrade prices 30 to 50% higher than earlier years.

I literally can not afford to continue messing around with OSX. It comes off of my computer today so that I can get back to productive use of my Mac tomorrow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Roger That!

-tom w

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Rather than break down into the merits of OS X (which after working with for a number of months I find infinitely more useable and stable), I'd like to say that I've been experimenting with a number of developer items from Apple since 10.1 came out in an effort to get CMBO to run in Classic mode.

While a simple reboot isn't all that bad, removing extensions (etc) and doing multiple reboots is a total pain in the ass. :mad:

I have been able to get CMBO to run in Classic under 10.1 - however, it is about the slowest I've ever seen it. Totally unplayable. :mad:

Apple's has yet to respond to any posts or emails regarding RAVE on OS X... :mad:

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An OS X CD came with my new Mac (purchased in June), but I am happily still running 9.1 for some of the same reasons listed in the above posts. It may eventually evolve into one of the finest systems known to man, but for the present I have no compelling reason to upgrade. I don't like the looks of it (though I suppose I could get used to that), and I have not been thrilled by much of what I've heard about how you have to interact with it. Extra stability is good and may eventually win me over, but I'm doing fine with what I've got. Aside from my reluctance to learn a whole new system, I am loathe to replace all my existing software. And for CM either not to run or to run poorly...well, do I really need to say it?

:(

Michael

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

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I have very few apps that require Classic now (just some of the Adobe ones) that I don't even auto-launch 9.2.1 as part of the 10.1 boot process.

I've found that they actually run faster under classic than under straight 9.2.1!!

Still - my holdout when the beta of X came out was CMBO. Talk about a tough decision!

Has everyone here sent an email to Apple requesting better RAVE support in Classic mode? Even if you don't run OS X - maybe you can help us that do!! :D

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  • 2 weeks later...

So if one disables the Classic RAVE extension in 9.2.1, will CM run on it then? I installed a new hard drive at the same time that I installed 9.2.1/X.1, and I've yet to reinstall CM as well -- but it'd be nice to know I'd have a way to make it work under my current install of 9.x, at least!

Obviously, I've kept back-ups of my old 9.1 system from my old hard drive, so I could always replace whatever extensions I've currently got in 9.2.1 with those. I doubt I really need the 3D drivers for much besides CM! smile.gif

Cheers,

Carl

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With hard drives getting so huge, I wonder about the feasibility of partitioning it and putting X on one partition and 9.whatever on another. You could then do all your standard work with X, and when you got ready to run an app that needs 9 (like CM smile.gif ), designate the partition with 9 on it as the startup disk and restart. This seems an obvious solution, so there must be something wrong with it I suppose. :rolleyes:

Michael

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I think the problem is that OS X's "classic" compatibility is in fact a full install of OS 9. The problem with running CM in classic is that OS X installs a RAVE component into the OS 9 system folder that is used for classic. So, if you try and boot into OS 9 from that system folder, CM won't even run from that.

Now, I think you could either have _two_ installs of OS 9, one for classic and one to reboot from, or, easier have a different extension set which you can switch to when you boot straight to OS 9 which removes the RAVE compatibility extension. I think that would work, however this should all be taken with a grain of salt since I don't have OS X yet (partially because I know CM won't work on it tongue.gif )

Ben

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I've done quite a bit of testing trying to get CM to run in Classic mode inside OS X so maybe I can clear up some of the confusion here.

To start I'd like to make two terms clear from the start:

When I say OS 9 I mean OS 9.1 to 9.2.1 as the startup OS, from it's own partition as if OS X was not even present.

Classic means OS 9 as it is summoned from inside OS X.

Classic and OS 9 are NOT the same thing, regardless of what Apple might tell you. Classic is OS9 being emulated inside OS X and many things do not work the same way.

Major misconception: CM will no longer run under 9.1 / 9.2.1 if you install OS X, even if you boot up from start under OS 9.

- Not true, CM and every other program work fine under OS 9, OS 9 is completely unaware of OS X's presence in the hard drive, it might as well be sharing drive space with Windows.

If you boot up under OS 9 CM will work fine, OS X does install some items in the OS 9 extensions folder, including the notorious "Classic Rave" extension, but they have no effect on OS 9 performance.

Another misconception is that Cm won't load at all in Classic. This is not true, it will load and act perfectly normal until the "Loading 3D graphics" window comes up, but then it will process for a long time with the result being a black screen and only the ambient sounds playing.

Many have suggested removing the Classic Rave extension from the OS 9 system folder and trying to run CM in Classic mode under OS X.

I have tried this many times, but with each attempt OS X reinstalls the Classic Rave extension again. Apple took a page from Microsoft here, by having the OS do stuff behind your back. I see no way around this.

Some people mentioned being able to play CM in Classic mode, but it's never been confirmed as far as I know so...

If anyone has been able to play a game of CM in classic mode under OS X then please let us know here

Gyrene

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<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

Some people mentioned being able to play CM in Classic mode, but it's never been confirmed as far as I know so...

If anyone has been able to play a game of CM in classic mode under OS X then please let us know here

Gyrene<hr></blockquote>

Consider it done! Except for a screen resolution limitation, it works very well.

Apple Menu->System Preferences->Classic Pane->Advanced Tab

You should see a pop-up menu with three items in it. Select "Open Extension Manager" and click the "Restart Classic" button. (I first quit all Classic apps just to be sure)

Classic will relaunch, bouncing 9 icon in Dock, pause a bit, and the Extensions Manager will appear. Deselect the Classic RAVE extension and click the "Continue" button. Classic goes on it's merry way and your good to go.

I normally run my monitor at 1280 x 1024. Classic and CM run at 640 x 480. (Ouch) When you shift to the desktop from within CM your nice OS X desktop is WAY small. The price of admission I guess.

smile.gif

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Thanks for the reply Jaypee, but i should have been a little more specific on my previous post.

I got the game to run like you did, in software rendering mode (i.e. no help from the video card), and what I was wondering is if anyone actually got CM to run with hardware acceleration in anything above 640x480.

Gyrene

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That's the same way I got it to run in Classic (as I posted previously) - but it runs so slow it's barely playable (graphics are much slower, but the time it takes to process moves is drastically increased).

I was also able to get it to run in 9.2.1 by removing all of the classic compatibility items (you can't use just Extensions Manager.

Unfortunately, this requires multiple reboots to get it to run and if you forget to put them back before you run OS X - OS X will re-install the items for compatibility.

Either way, it's a real pain and due to the slow speed in Classic - I've got to really be in the mood to play now.

I have contacted Apple multiple times regarding RAVE compatibility and posted to their support boards, but have never received a reply or have had the post removed.

Maybe if more people contact Apple?

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Wondering:

Why recode to carbonize?

Why not just 'fix' the current RAVE engine to make it compatible with the RAVE shim in Classic?

That can't be that big a change for a single developer. At least that way CMBO and CMBB would be playable under OS X / Classic and 9.X without any of the current issues!

Apple's developer site has all the info on the current RAVE stuff.

Has anyone proposed this yet?

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<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Wondering:

Why recode to carbonize?

Why not just 'fix' the current RAVE engine to make it compatible with the RAVE shim in Classic?

That can't be that big a change for a single developer. At least that way CMBO and CMBB would be playable under OS X / Classic and 9.X without any of the current issues!

Apple's developer site has all the info on the current RAVE stuff.

Has anyone proposed this yet?

<hr></blockquote>

Well, I suppose I third party could tweak the Rave extensions to get CM to work (And maybe fix the GeForce drivers while they're at i :D )

It's way beyond me, and it's possibly illegal for BTS as a company to do, same as it would be for Apple to patch CM, but maybe some kind independent soul could tackle this.

Gyrene

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