karsten Posted September 23, 2001 Share Posted September 23, 2001 Has anyone had a chance to try CM on a developer version of 10.1? Are there any improvments? Still sad that there will never be a carbon or cocoa version of CM :-( 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Posted September 26, 2001 Share Posted September 26, 2001 Oh, look! Another Mac OS X thread I can jump into! Apple announced today that Mac OS 10.1 will be released on Saturday. Once again, I'm looking for BTS's words on how CMBB - and the original CMBO - will play in the new OS. I'll state once again, that as an owner of CMBO, I am more than willing to pay an upgrade fee for the effort required to make CMBO work in OS X. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by karsten: Has anyone had a chance to try CM on a developer version of 10.1? Are there any improvments? Still sad that there will never be a carbon or cocoa version of CM :-(<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karsten Posted September 26, 2001 Author Share Posted September 26, 2001 So who's going to be the first to post CMBO results in OS X 10.1?? I'd love to re-install CMBO after getting 10.1 if it runs fast! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted September 27, 2001 Share Posted September 27, 2001 Running CMBO under 10 really is in Apples court at this point, if the Rave API in Classic was compatible with the original Rave CMBO was written for it would likely run fine. Again, as a Classic application. BTS has categorically stated that they will not recompile CMBO to run in OPENGL the current Apple standard. Sadly the same will go for CMBB unless Charles manages to whip a remarkable rabbit out of his hat. Compatibility of the CM series will come with the major engine rewrite for CMII in another year and a half at best. Then we will have the Med and the early war to look forward to. In regards to your secondary point, there are many of us here that would willingly pay even the entire purchase price to have a OSX compatible version of CMBO. I campaigned quite heavily some months ago, and I am sure raised the ire of some of our hosts before they would come out with a definitive statement on this issue. You're right to ask, but I would expect little response and even less chance of a change in the landscape at this point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karsten Posted September 27, 2001 Author Share Posted September 27, 2001 I know about the RAVE problems. I'm wondering if the performance has increased under 10.1 classic... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted September 27, 2001 Share Posted September 27, 2001 I don't think it plays at all, it crashes when starting a battle. As to whether this has changed in 10.1, I don't know, but I doubt it... Ben 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karsten Posted September 27, 2001 Author Share Posted September 27, 2001 It runs in Classic on mine (his since the first release of 10.0) - but unaccaptably slow. And I mean SLOW! Initially I was on a 300 iBook, now on a 500 iBook w/ 10.0.4. Everytime I upgraded OS or HW I tried it again - to no avail. Slow! Was hoping that with all of the speed improvments in 10.1 that CMBO would finally be usable. BTW: Where the heck can I find info on the next CM? (CMBB or CM2 I think people have been calling it). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted September 27, 2001 Share Posted September 27, 2001 When CMBO works in OS X's Classic Mode it is running in 'software rendering' mode and thus doesn't enjoy any benefits of 3D hardware acceleration. That's probably why it runs unacceptably slow on you OS X setup. Unfortunately I wouldn't honestly expect 10.1 to change the speed that CMBO runs at. I believe the speed improvements are mostly geared towards the Aqua interface of OS X and other OpenGL routines. I couldn't find anything about improvements to RAVE support for 10.1 and until this is changed I wouldn't expect most speed improvements in OS X to help with CMBO's rendering. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karsten Posted September 27, 2001 Author Share Posted September 27, 2001 Still, one can hope 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Indeed. I had read that 10.1 would offer better Rave support, but do not know if that will indeed be the case. I don't currently run 10, so one of you 10.1 lab rats will have to test the waters. Good luck and report back. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karsten Posted September 28, 2001 Author Share Posted September 28, 2001 I remember reading the same thing - which is what prompted my initial post Has anyone heard from anyone at Battlefront? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 Today I tried CM with the general release of 10.1 without success. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Toad: Today I tried CM with the general release of 10.1 without success.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hi I'm sorry to hear that. I had planned to try it tonight when I get home I just got 10.1 today! There are probably only about 15-20 of us here that care about wheather or not CMBO AND CMBB will run under Mac OS X (10.1) It does not surprise me that it won't and it annoyes me to no end that MadMatt and BTS feel that Apple is to blame for not letting them know ahead of time that Rave support was to be discontinued. If they were licensed Apple Developers (and they SHOULD be, but I doubt they are) they would have been getting ALL the Apple developer updates and software ALL along and would also be eligble for Apple developer discounts on hardware purchases, and they woudl have known Rave was only a short term phenomenon. But from my understanding of the BTS position they feel Apple just went ahead and dropped RAVE support and didn't let any body know it was coming. oh well If you want to run CMBO OR CMBB you can forget running it on Mac OS X! It sucks but thats the way it is. -tom w 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karsten Posted October 4, 2001 Author Share Posted October 4, 2001 Got 10.1 as well. Won't run at all. Total suck. Very unhappy. BTW: What the heck is CMBB? :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by karsten: Got 10.1 as well. Won't run at all. Total suck. Very unhappy. BTW: What the heck is CMBB? :confused:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Beyond Barbarossa The Next Eastern Front version of CMBO is CMBB CM Beyond Barbarossa and it WILL have the SAME Rave Limitations as CMBO and that will stink! -tom w 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karsten Posted October 4, 2001 Author Share Posted October 4, 2001 Wait a sec. CMBB is a NEW game and it WON'T be 10.1 compatible?? How long have they been developing it? It's not like OS X has been a secret or anything for a number of years now! So what the heck is the problem w/ at least carbonizing CMBO? and why are they developing a game that uses RAVE - which was dropped ages ago? Also BTW: 10.1 works perfectly, it's CMBO that won't run on it. Originally, I had CMBO running on the OS X Beta in Classic, but no luck since then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 CMBO started development almost four years ago. At that time QuickDraw RAVE was the most widely supported 3D API on the Mac (OpenGL was there, but I don't know what its driver support was like on the Mac at the time). When Apple officially dropped RAVE as the 3D API for OS X CMBO was quite a ways along in its development. Seeing that RAVE was still a major API at that point that worked with OS 8.x and 9.x, development continued with RAVE (otherwise there would have been quite a delay in changing APIs at that point). Now that OS X is out and the RAVE compatibility isn't sufficient to support CMBO, it's obviously an issue. While OpenGL was known to be the preferred API for OS X and that RAVE would no longer be developed and utilized natively in OS X, I don't think it was known just what level of 'compatibility' would exist for RAVE applications. Other than the Open Beta I don't know if there were any sure-fire indications from Apple that RAVE support wouldn't be up to version 1.7 (which CMBO utilizes). CMBB is going to be based on CMBO's graphic engine, which means RAVE on the Mac. It would take well over a year alone to rewrite the graphic routines for the OpenGL API - no small task. Carbonizing an app isn't too much of a problem with the tools that Apple provides, unless you happen to be coding for a game in RAVE. Then it's a complete rewrite - which is what BTS will have to do to get CM to run natively in OS X. CM II will be rewritten to run in OpenGL on the Mac (as far as I know). This process will take over a year (and will involve other changes to the graphic engine). It just wasn't worth BTS's time to recode the graphics API to support the current engine. It was decided to recoded in the new API and add features at the same time - much more effective, especially when you consider that CM is primarily programmed by one person - Charles Moylan. There is no intentional slight of OS X users, but what Apple does with 'Compatibility Mode' support of RAVE will obviously affect people trying to run CM with OS X - something completely out of BTS's hands. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karsten Posted October 5, 2001 Author Share Posted October 5, 2001 Sounds like BTS has a pretty small development team. Still, I can't imagine that it would take a full year to update the graphics routines from RAVE to OpenGL. Unless they've only got one graphics guy on the team. How many people do they have? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 There is ONE person doing the programming and that is Charles. There are four paid people on staff for BTS/Battlefront and coding the game is one part of the job. Changing code from RAVE to OpenGL may not be as simple as you think since they are different APIs and they draw differently. The graphical API can affect the base/common code that is utilized in both Mac and PC platforms so it may not be just a simple transposition of code, but something much more involved. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 Karsten: BTS has 1 (one) programmer named Charles, who is a very fine fellow and a right dandy programmer. He also codes this game on a Mac and ports it to Windoze. In total BTS has 4 employees and a contract with an order fufillment house (in Vermont of all places (home sweet home for me)). Mad Matt, Charles, Kwazy Dog, and Steve (Schrullenhaft is not an employee or even officially afilliated though he works like he is ) are the total team charged with developing, marketing and selling the CM series. So, unlike so many of the game development houses they cannot just pop out a game engine rewrite in just a few months. So in buying this game, you are very clearly supporting some very specific people. For some of us that have been here for while, it is the fact that you are indeed supporting individuals that we are so enthused about the game because those individuals indeed are representative to a degree of who {I]we are and how we see the world. Go back to the manifesto that you agreed to when you originally signed onto this board and read it carefully, its an interesting read and they mean it. You might also carefully peruse the links in the main BTS site, you can see Steve and Charles firing some interesting weapons (for research only of course) and driving around in a WW2 vintage Studebaker M29 Weasel they (or Charles) own. Anyway, yes they have a small team, put out a quality product and stand behind it. SInce they are small they cannot change direction as fast as some of us would like, but they are making products we desire and they do support the Mac which is much much more than any of the big game producers care to do. Most of those here are MS Windows users and they are chomping at the bit to have the next step in the series (as are most of the rest of us). CMBO is the last game I have bought for myself in the last 2 years. I played the Beta Demo from the first week, then the Gold Demo until the shipping version came out and the shipping version to now. I would happily pay for a new CD/seat of the game in full to get OSX compatibility. We will just have to reboot into 9.1 to play this version until the main engine rewrite. Which if not perfect at least is a nonbuggy, reliable and very enjoyable pursuit. So, you might like to throttle back on the vitriole because you are not speaking of some huge faceless corporation, but of some people most all of us here respect and admire. PS: CMBB stands for Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin not Barbarossa and Beyond or any other combo. [ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: kmead ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karsten Posted October 5, 2001 Author Share Posted October 5, 2001 Vitrole? w/o knowing that there was a single programmer in advance, a one year estimate seemed quite large. Knowing that there is one guy doing this changes a lot. Considering how great this game is, I'm amazed that it was done by only one person w/ 3 support staff! Very talented guy! I'd be happy to pay for an OS X version to be developed. Maybe they could get enough pre-orders for them to contract a couple other developers and do a port? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aikidorat Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 As much as i'd prefer an OSX compatible version of CM (or just classic), it takes only a minute or two to reboot my iBook into OS 9 in order to run the game. I can live with that. In fact, have been since OSX first came out. In it now, reboot into 9 once I find out my PBEM turn has arrived.... a wee bit of a hassle, but still acceptable for the best game I have played in years (and the only one to last longer than a few months on my hard drive). And I still get to use an incredible OS most of the time. I'd rather BTS continue to support the mac, even if it is OS 9 only, for CM:BB, than to stop due to the RAVE issue. Think about it - they could just drop support due to the non-OSX issue, save themselves some hassle and insults... other developers have done far less for the mac and would just stop the effort instead of getting a little bit of negative press. It'll be up to us to help those that want the game but arent sure how to get it to run in OSX...More mac sales now means more probability of OSX version for CMII.. (Actually, I'm rather amazed at the ease with which I can switch OSes, and not have any issues with my airport network at home, or my files on the computer. Definately not this easy on the PC at work....) (FYI, I run one partition with 9.1 for games (CM), and another with 9.2.1 and OSX for OSX. Simple matter to switch between the two)). also, not that it matters all that much, but the revised version of MCM3 (coming soon) will run in OSX, though it has some ugly buttons. I'm too lazy to fix the cosmetic issues, but will release the carbon version of MCM3 (runs in OS9 as well), just in case one wants it. best, dave 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aikidorat: also, not that it matters all that much, but the revised version of MCM3 (coming soon) will run in OSX, though it has some ugly buttons. I'm too lazy to fix the cosmetic issues, but will release the carbon version of MCM3 (runs in OS9 as well), just in case one wants it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey, Akidorat! Long time, no see. I was asking about you a week or so back. Glad to see you're still part of the community. Michael [ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: Michael emrys ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karsten Posted October 5, 2001 Author Share Posted October 5, 2001 CMBO won't run on my OS X iBook when rebooted into 9.2 - it just crashes. It does run on my wife's G4 tower w/o OS X installed, but she hates it when I tie up her mac (can't blame her!). When I was asking for an OS X compatible version I probably should have been more specific - basically, I love the game so much that I just want to be able to play it on my own mac! The time it takes to reboot into 9.2 isn't an issue. It's not a convenience issue for me - it's a matter of just being able to play! [ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: karsten ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by karsten: CMBO won't run on my OS X iBook when rebooted into 9.2 - it just crashes. It does run on my wife's G4 tower w/o OS X installed, but she hates it when I tie up her mac (can't blame her!). When I was asking for an OS X compatible version I probably should have been more specific - basically, I love the game so much that I just want to be able to play it on my own mac! The time it takes to reboot into 9.2 isn't an issue. It's not a convenience issue for me - it's a matter of just being able to play! [ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: karsten ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm not an expert on this but I think you need tset up the extensions correctly in 9.2 to make it work Someone else here will correct me if I'm mistaken but I think you need to remove the "classic rave" extension from 9.2 to make it work. AFTER Mac OS X is installed the classic 9.x abilitly to run CMBO is compromised because Mac OSX adds the classic rave Extension(I think ??) to the classic operating system and then it won't work, hence this comment: "(FYI, I run one partition with 9.1 for games (CM), and another with 9.2.1 and OSX for OSX. Simple matter to switch between the two)). " from aikidorat good luck -tom w 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.