Kingfish Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 Posted this over at the Axis history forum, but so far no one has responded. Hopefully someone here may be able to help: Looking for info on what type(s) of German armor supported the "Olga" Line during the battle for Florence in August '44, specifically around Villa Strada and Villa Bonazza. To date my two sources of information are nzetc.org, and issue 129 of 'After the battle' magazine. Both confirm that Tigers of the 508th Schwere Panzer Abtielung were present, with the 2nd NZ division bagging its first Tiger near Villa Strada. However, both sources also mention "Jerry had four Mark IV tanks or self-propelled guns there". My question is would these be StuGs, Marders or actual Mark IVs? The area around the two Villas were the responsibilty of 356th ID / I Fallschirm-Korps, of which the 11. Sturmgeschütz Brigade was part of. 29th PzGr was also on the line nearby, and there were also several photos of Mark IVs that were destroyed in battles near there. Were the Mark IVs from 29th PzGr Div, and could some have been loaned to 356th ID? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 I doubt they'd be IVs. One, it was not at all common for IVs to operate with infantry divisions. StuGs did that, and Marders, but the turreted tanks were kept with the mobile divisions. Tiger battalions are an exception because they were used as operational units, above division level. Two, at least late in 1943 the 29th Pz Gdr had StuGs in its lone "panzer" battalion, not IVs, due to shortages. Four vehicles suggests Marders (a Pz Jgr battery), but could also be StuGs from a reduced company, and those are the most likely type by role and date. But I haven't found definitive information, and there don't seem to be unit histories of the 356th ID. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted November 28, 2005 Author Share Posted November 28, 2005 Normally I wouldn't have bothered asking, since I knew that the StuG / Marder combos were the staple of most infantry division's PzJr battalions, but it was the pics of the destroyed Mark IVs that threw me off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 What does the source of the pics say? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted November 28, 2005 Author Share Posted November 28, 2005 Two pics in question, both from the After the battle mag. The first shows a Mark IV knocked out during the battle for the Poggio Cigoli (Point 281). Looks like a 'G' model. The caption reads in part: "during the counterattack a German PzKpfw IV, belonging to Panzer-Abteilung 29 of the 29. Panzergrenadier division, blew this hole in the wall...". The second shows the shattered remains of another Mark IV, with the turret lying along side, the victim of an ambush. Again the caption reads in part: "later that day a PzKpfw IV from Panzer-Abteilung 29 cautiously approached the position only to be knocked out by a 17-pounder from the 7th Antitank regiment...". Now granted, these two were not involved in the fighting near Villa Strada, but further west, but since both sources mentioned "Mark IVs or SPGs" in the Villa Strada fight I thought it was worth asking. [ November 28, 2005, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Kingfish ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted November 29, 2005 Share Posted November 29, 2005 So the 29th clearly had IVs and was in the general area. Clear enough. Unless the unit was from the 29th, though, I'd expect StuGs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve McClaire Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 According to Nafziger the panzer battalion of for the 29th Panzergrenadier Division was Pz.Abt.129, not 29, and was equipped entirely with StuGs (though the last date for which this is stated is Sept. 1943). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted November 30, 2005 Author Share Posted November 30, 2005 Correction to my original post, it was the 4th FJ, not 356th ID, which held that part of the line. A check of different sources shows it had no organic armor assets, but 11th StuG Brigade was available from 1st FJ Korp. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 Originally posted by Steve McClaire: According to Nafziger the panzer battalion of for the 29th Panzergrenadier Division was Pz.Abt.129, not 29, and was equipped entirely with StuGs (though the last date for which this is stated is Sept. 1943). According to Jentz, the Abt. was converted to Panzer III/IVlg in March 1944, so this is what they would have had at Florence. They also had Stugs in the division in 1945 at surrender. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 Steve - that was the date of the report I saw too, basically Salerno era. But as Andreas found and the wrecks clearly confirm, they did get IVs later in the Italian campaign. To rule out actual help from the 29th on the particular occasion you want to model, you'd need a detailed level narrative, e.g. a 29th unit history. StuGs are more likely, but "likely" isn't certainty. Sorry I haven't found more on this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted December 1, 2005 Author Share Posted December 1, 2005 So far everything seems to point towards StuGs rather than loaners from the 29th PzGr. Villa Strada was on the extreme eastern flank of the 4th FJ division's line, with the 29th PzGr to the west of them. Could the 29th have sent a few Mark IVs to help their comrades to the east? Sure, but why bother when they could draw from the Korp's StuG Brigade or the 508th Schwere Panzer Abtielung? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 Stugs busy elsewhere? 508 having few runners? Or the other way round? 508 only had 14 runners on 1 Aug. 17 in repair shops. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted December 1, 2005 Author Share Posted December 1, 2005 Originally posted by Andreas: Stugs busy elsewhere?Or in transit to another theater? Sturmvogel shows the unit having 22 assault guns operational in March w/ 14th Army, then a big gap of several months before the next mention in September, only now they are fighting (and being wiped out) outside of Nancy. Damn the Germans and their shoddy record keeping! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 Ha! Nancyboys. Can't even keep records. The swine. Serves them right they lost the war. Go with the IVs. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 Any Hornisse in the area? Just thought I'd ask for general confusion. Or Grille? Or Pak 43 on RSO chassis? All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted December 1, 2005 Author Share Posted December 1, 2005 Well, maybe not Grilles... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 Kingfish, Too funny! BTW, what's the correct Sonderkraftfahrzeuge Numern for that thing? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 Is that the World War I A7V tank hull the Germans used in that SdKfz 777/1? Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 It's a field mod with parts of StuG top hulls as skirts. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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