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Andreas

PBEM in CMx2

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Originally posted by Panzer76:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wartgamer:

1%???? one percent?

I don't think even BFC believes that.

The number is not correct, only used to communicate that very few of the customer base use PBEM, and even fewer would base their buying decision on its inclusion or lackof.

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

BFC emails people don't they? With announcements and what have you? Why not just send out a poll? They would get a very good feedback as far as who plays in what modes.

Most customers does not frequent these boards (in fact, VERY few do so) or recives emails from BFC. Those that do are more likely to be playing the game with other humans. So, any poll would be skewed. </font>

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Originally posted by Elvis:

This forum can only be a small slice of BFCs customer base.

While I agree with you 100% on this, I think what you will find is that the regulars on this forum are more representative of the core CM audience than its being made out to be.

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So, half of all CM sales are to Gaylord, Username and Maximus?

P.S. Yes, Andreas, check your e-mail. I've been waiting for my turn since September.

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Originally posted by Wartgamer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer76:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wartgamer:

1%???? one percent?

I don't think even BFC believes that.

The number is not correct, only used to communicate that very few of the customer base use PBEM, and even fewer would base their buying decision on its inclusion or lackof.

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

BFC emails people don't they? With announcements and what have you? Why not just send out a poll? They would get a very good feedback as far as who plays in what modes.

Most customers does not frequent these boards (in fact, VERY few do so) or recives emails from BFC. Those that do are more likely to be playing the game with other humans. So, any poll would be skewed. </font>

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So, what you are suggesting is that customers here should be more valuable to BFC than casual players? Do you want to multiply US$45 by the membership number or the post count to make that work for BFC?

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Oh boy... some more low numbers guys coming in here and acting like they have been around for a long time. Oh... they have... dang :D

We do think this Forum represents the CM community more-or-less roundly. The most vocal, however, tend to be the most hardcore. But when discussions are more laid back, the others tend to toss in their two bits. There are certainly more people that have said they would still buy CMx2 without PBEM than those who said they wouldn't.

Steve

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Originally posted by Andreas:

So, what you are suggesting is that customers here should be more valuable to BFC than casual players?

But what is different from those that post here and the casual player? If anything, the guys asking that pbem not be dropped are by definition casual players.

BTW, check your e-mail

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Originally posted by Kingfish:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

So, what you are suggesting is that customers here should be more valuable to BFC than casual players?

But what is different from those that post here and the casual player? If anything, the guys asking that pbem not be dropped are by definition casual players.

BTW, check your e-mail </font>

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There won't be any agreement here until we get some cold, hard facts. So I took the liberty of arranging a survey among my PBEM buddies, and it turned out that most of them play by e-mail. So there.

Btw. Steve, I've been wondering for years... do you and Charles ever really play CM, and if, by which method (single, multi, QB's, scenarios)?

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Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kingfish:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

So, what you are suggesting is that customers here should be more valuable to BFC than casual players?

But what is different from those that post here and the casual player? If anything, the guys asking that pbem not be dropped are by definition casual players.

BTW, check your e-mail </font>

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And, let's face it - it isn't worth the trouble to make quality for casual players, because they would never play the game enough to learn to appreciate how great the game is. Or if they get that far, they're already tired of the AI and have switched to PBEM. For the casual player EYSA would be good enough. PBEM players are the people who benefit from the great design and accurate simulation featured in CM.

The 'casual player' would of course buy the new CM even if it was a C&C clone designed by Eric Young.

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Having played these three games non-stop since they came out, I owe much to BFC for their pioneering efforts. While I play PBEM exclusively, I can see why the extension of this pioneering effort might render PBEM, as we know it, un-supportable.

Perhaps operating a server which functioned as an intermediary between players, would allow a PBEM-like effect without having to e-mail between individual players' e-mail servers. I'd be willing to pay for such a service, if it let me continue playing these marvelous games!

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Sergei,

I'm not sure you give the casual player enough credit. I would have to place myself as a casual player. I have played maybe two, half games of PBEM and two games of TCP/IP but I have played hundreds of games against the AI and I really enjoy a quick battle. I visit off and on this forum to see what is happening and I might go a few months between games and then play several dozen over a few weeks.

But what has made this game worth playing is the quality put into it. I am by no means a grog and this is the only hard core military game I play but I do appreciate the quality of this game and the opportunity to be the commander of my forces in my eternal quest to win and succeed.

-Demster

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Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Oh boy... some more low numbers guys coming in here and acting like they have been around for a long time. Oh... they have... dang :D

We do think this Forum represents the CM community more-or-less roundly. The most vocal, however, tend to be the most hardcore. But when discussions are more laid back, the others tend to toss in their two bits. There are certainly more people that have said they would still buy CMx2 without PBEM than those who said they wouldn't.

Steve

Yep I would. Maybe not CM3 or 4, expansion packs etc.

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Steve,

As for PBEM, I'm for some form of implementation of it. It is the closest way of replicating the single player fun of CM. (The way you can put the game down for a few minutes to a few weeks and then start the battle right where you left off.) With a PBEM system, you can let the turn sit until you've carved out some time to play, even if it's just a few minutes. The benefit is the friendship of your PBEM partner, and the better experience playing versus a human instead of the A.I.

With TCP/IP, you lose that flexibility. You MUST sit and play at the same times, coordinating turns.

Through PBEM, I've convinced two casual wargamers to buy your products. One is only at CMBO, the other has CMBO, BB, and AK; just like me. That's a benefit of PBEM.

Thanks,

Ken

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Sergei,

Btw. Steve, I've been wondering for years... do you and Charles ever really play CM, and if, by which method (single, multi, QB's, scenarios)?
The flip answer is to quote the time honored "Curse of the Game Developer". It goes something like this...

Game Developers start out as Game Players who want to play something that doesn't already exist. In order to do this they sacrifice their personal lives, heaps of money, and sometimes their health. What they find is that the no longer have any time to play games, and therefore in producing games have defeated their own reasons for getting into the game business in the first place.

The serious answer is that Charles hardly plays CM at all. At least not in the way that you guys do. I play CM a lot more than he does, but not anything like you guys do. It might sound counter intuitive since one would think that in order to design a good game we have to also play it a ton. In fact, imagination is a million times more valuable than play experience. The reason is that before something can be played it must be coded, but before it can be coded it must be imagined. Limited imaginations can't be made good on by good programming and lots of game playing.

I personally play CM solo most of the time since it is the easiest thing to do. I played a bunch of PBEM games, including a tourny, but found it to be a rather frustrating experience at times. I would rather play TCP/IP, though it has its own issues.

Steve

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Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

We do think this Forum represents the CM community more-or-less roundly. The most vocal, however, tend to be the most hardcore. But when discussions are more laid back, the others tend to toss in their two bits. There are certainly more people that have said they would still buy CMx2 without PBEM than those who said they wouldn't.

Steve

Really? The first sentence quoted is the most interesting to me. I see that polls are disabled on the forum, but I shall attempt a small experiment, and pray your indulgence...

As far as "laid-back" vs "hard-core"; anyone who frequents the Warbirds forums will tell you that I am at my most laid-back here. Hey, it's your game and you do what you wanna do. You've been hitting them out of the park so far with the CM series. I've been a big fan for a long time. I've bought copies for myself and bought copies to give to fellow grogs as gifts.

You release CMX2 with anything that remotely resembles the current AI, and without PBEM, and it'll fall flat on it's face in the sales department. Moreso will fall CMX2A...and CMX2B. I am not without some experience in the field of game marketing and design.

You have created not only a great game, but a great market niche. You abandon either at your peril. That's meant as friendly advice.

MHO, YMMV. I am only one customer, and I only vote with one wallet.

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Vadr,

Really? The first sentence quoted is the most interesting to me.
Represented, yes, but not in a proportional way. In other words, we might have only about 1-2% of our total audience (don't forget all our retail customers!) posting here to this Forum at any given time. We feel that in this miniscule number there are voices from all sorts of different gamer types. However, the bulk of the people here, as a %, are Grogs/Hardcore gamers. This group is therefore disproportionally represented on this Forum. The most vocal are even more of a distortion.

You release CMX2 with anything that remotely resembles the current AI, and without PBEM, and it'll fall flat on it's face in the sales department. Moreso will fall CMX2A...and CMX2B
Obviously we don't agree. There are games that sell hundreds of thousands of more games than we could ever imagine selling, and yet they have HORRID AI (almost none) and no PBEM functionality. The overall game, therefore, is what is important. If we made CMx2 with the same as CMx1 but with better graphics and no PBEM I bet we'd sell more copies.

Sorry folks.... PBEM is not all that important in the Big Picture. Period. You will never, ever be able to convince me otherwise. Never. So please... just stop trying because it is really old. We already KNOW that some of you are pissed at the mere mention of PBEM possibly being unusable... so repetition is only an annoyance not a new source of information that has any chance of influencing decisions we have yet to make.

Steve

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:(

You fail to keep track of all these threads and bang something catches your eye...

Well more like hits both of them and leaves you with one sodding big headache.

I am not wading through the thread as Steve has made himself clear.

:(

H

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Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Sorry folks.... PBEM is not all that important in the Big Picture. Period. You will never, ever be able to convince me otherwise. Never. So please... just stop trying because it is really old. We already KNOW that some of you are pissed at the mere mention of PBEM possibly being unusable... so repetition is only an annoyance not a new source of information that has any chance of influencing decisions we have yet to make.

Steve

Ok. Fair enough. The people seem to be speaking contrary to my opinion in the other thread so far, we'll see...

BF42 has sold a lot more copies than CM I'm sure. I understand the commercial realities. I've enjoyed your games and appreciate your efforts. Wish you great success going forward.

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