Oncoming Scenario

[SgtMuhammed]

LSSAH ended up being comitted to the fighting around Bastogne but who's to say were every piece of equipment ended up. Things sent to repair shops are likely to be snatched up by anyone who feels they have a need.

[juan_gigante]

I think you guys got me. I'm pretty sure I got my foresty battles confused - more likely than getting the divisions confused. I think my parents have the guy's little book lying around somewhere - next time I see them I'll try and remember to ask about it.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

I installed your pine mod. Looks great.

I am using Ed's CMBB bunker mod and it doesn't match your sandbag mod. I'll have to look for another bunker. Which one are you using?

I suggest you make a rubble mod. I am using MikeyD's for CMAK. It is very good but a match to your other mods would be even better.

I use the standard CMAK bunker I think. Just took out litel bit of Blue (from RGB) in PSP so it fits better to the sandbag mod which has a slightly more brownish tone, though hardly noticable.

Think I´m using MikeyD´s rubble mod as well. It´s used with too many files so I abandoned trying it to mod. Guess we´re stuck with that. I´ll need both, roadblocks and rubbled buildings/rubble in my future scenarios and modding to many files would probably be to uncomfortable for people to download, just to get the right feel for a particular scenario.

There´will be lots of rubble soon.....(probably early next year) :eek:

[RockinHarry]

I still need 2-3 more Beta testers who have a particular interest in the hurtgen forest battles and related combat techniques (forest fighting, mines, fortifications ect.)

Please mail at harizan@web.de

topic: CMAK

[JasonC]

I've started but not finished yet. Some immediate quibbles - mud I can see but deep, in October, strikes me as overkill. Similarly for "weakened" - that makes perfect sense for late November or early December, but does not seem right for the early fighting.

As it is, the combination (plus steep slopes all over) basically just outlaws movement rates other than "move" and "move to contact", which is neither particularly historical nor tactically all that interesting. It feels contrived, like the designer is trying to sit in my chair and yell at me about how tiring it was.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by JasonC:

I've started but not finished yet. Some immediate quibbles - mud I can see but deep, in October, strikes me as overkill. Similarly for "weakened" - that makes perfect sense for late November or early December, but does not seem right for the early fighting.

As it is, the combination (plus steep slopes all over) basically just outlaws movement rates other than "move" and "move to contact", which is neither particularly historical nor tactically all that interesting. It feels contrived, like the designer is trying to sit in my chair and yell at me about how tiring it was.

Yep, in fact I´m more aiming at a sort of case study and less mainstream like scenario.

Does the deep mud matter much? There ain´t really getting stuck many units with this setting and the other settings are more to balance the terrain conditions, in particular making the high pines terrain more difficult as it currently is in CMAK.

What can be considered the right fitness setting after 2 days figthing through difficult terrain anyway? I even experimented with exhausted, but that was more to counter the AI´s tendency to rush through everything! Just had to brake it somehow.

Thanks for reporting though. :cool: An end game save file would help much as well.

[JasonC]

Deep mud plus weakened plus steep slopes equals only "move" and "move to contact" orders allowed. Everything else is instant "exhausted". Outlawing the "advance" command this way does not make for more interesting tactics, just frustration. Weakened and wet, or ordinary mud plus normal troop condition, is quite adequate. Also, weakened would generally apply to troops who have been fighting for a month, or cut off from all resupply for days, or suffering from widespread frostbite, trenchfoot, dysentery etc. It doesn't mean "not enough sleep". Nobody in combat has ever had enough sleep.

[JasonC]

I'm writing an AAR as I go. I don't play scenarios like this very fast. I fiddle too much for that. I've finished 8 turns so far. Going great, only 9 men hit and 5 enemy units wiped out, another one almost so (heads down and overwhelmed). I've barely touched my heavier assets.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Deep mud plus weakened plus steep slopes equals only "move" and "move to contact" orders allowed. Everything else is instant "exhausted". Outlawing the "advance" command this way does not make for more interesting tactics, just frustration. Weakened and wet, or ordinary mud plus normal troop condition, is quite adequate. Also, weakened would generally apply to troops who have been fighting for a month, or cut off from all resupply for days, or suffering from widespread frostbite, trenchfoot, dysentery etc. It doesn't mean "not enough sleep". Nobody in combat has ever had enough sleep.

Deep mud actually should affect armor more than it obviously does. If infantry options suffer too much I´ll turn it back to mud or wet just for the sake of better playability. See also my other posting below.

[RockinHarry]

"The Huertgen Forest, as the entire area became known, embraced a thickly wooded section of Germany approximately 50 square miles in size. The forest consisted primarily of fir trees, planted so closely together that a man often had to crawl to get through them. Sunlight had a tough time penetrating through the trees and observers described the area as " dark and forbidding." As units advanced in the forest, the separation and isolation of individual soldiers was significant. In some areas it was possible to see only the man to your immediate front or flank. Navigation was difficult to impossible for many units. Numerous ravines, some quite large, such as the Kall River Gorge, cut the ground and blocked almost all movement. Roads and trails, the few that existed, were deep in mud. Moving supplies forward over these paths proved to be a major challenge. There were few battles in the ETO in which terrain had such an overwhelming physical and psychological effects on soldiers and units as did the Huertgen Forest."

Source: Operational Performance of the U.S. 28TH INFANTRY DIVISION, Sep-Dec 1944

A thesis presented to the Faculty of the U. S. Army Command and General Staff College by Major Jeffrey P. Holt

I know the terrain from repeated personal inspections during past 25 years and although nowadays most part of the forest is pretty tidied up by wood workers, there´s still lots of forest parts that are not and give a good impression how the woods looked by fall/winter 1944/45. A simple walk off the trails and fire breaks is very straining and I don´t need much imagination how much more straining it is when carrying the usual loads of equipment the average US or german soldier had to carry. I did my travels mostly during summer and/or good weather, but remember a day in late fall (a November day in late 90ies IIRC) when we were surprised by a wheather change from overcast to sleet and snow. We did not had quite the appropiate waterproof clothes for such a tour this day and when we broke off it was too late and the bad weather caught us quite near the area where the "Wild Boar" mine fields was located during wartime. When we reached the car about 15-20 minutes later we were almost wet to the bones and cold. It would be plain silly to compare that with what our fathers or grandfathers had to endure, but I had at least a little "impression" of what had happened in that area now 60 years ago. Well, I can imagine that it takes just very few days for a soldier to become "weakened" under those conditions, maybe also dependent upon whether you are a trained sportsman or untrained office worker ect. I don´t see any relation that the "weakened" (or "exhausted") fitness level in CMAK is tied to a particular month. In case of the 9. US ID it was burned out after approx. two weeks of fighting in the forest and that was in mid-end october! :eek:

However....the High Pines terrain in CMAK does not quite represent the forests as decribed above and as it is not possible to have more difficult terrain in CMAK with high pines look, I modelled the "effect" by limiting the infantry fitness level to "weakened". From my test play the deep mud ground setting only has some limited effect on units on dirt roads and clear terrain, but as good as none for units in woods, which makes most of the terrain in the Beta scenario. :eek:

As said, I´m looking for people who read some good books/accounts about the Huertgen forest campaign and are willing to compare with what can be played in the Beta scenario.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by JasonC:

I'm writing an AAR as I go. I don't play scenarios like this very fast. I fiddle too much for that. I've finished 8 turns so far. Going great, only 9 men hit and 5 enemy units wiped out, another one almost so (heads down and overwhelmed). I've barely touched my heavier assets.

Oh..just take time! I appreciate everything you could tell and that could improve the Death Factory Beta, no matter how long it takes! As said this Beta is just for testing various concepts that I intend to use for the big scenarios to come. Some sort of battle analysis based on what you can do with the CM game engine, in particular the heavy forest fighting and related problems in the campaign.

Later battles will include the fight for vossenack, Huertgen, maybe Schmidt and more. The map are all more or less well reearched and based on 1944 topographical maps, as well as unit combat sketches/reports.

Average players will hate the stuff, but players who are more interested in the battle itself, will probably have more fun and maybe some education (at least I have). :cool:

[RockinHarry]

Now available at TPG:

http://www.the-proving-grounds.com/scenario_details_link.html?sku=1004