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US infantry ammo load


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Sheesh Volkov, you are just making a fool out of yourself. You come up with some blanket statements andoffer no evidence other than patriotic propganda like gibberish. Others like FK have offered historical statements which reflect how the US soldier performed.

I think the problem is that you live in your own little universe and think that every other US soldier, at any time in history, must have been like you and your experiences.

Give it a rest.

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Originally posted by flamingknives:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Volkov:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer76:

Give it a rest.

I did with the post to Dorosh....see above. </font>
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Originally posted by flamingknives:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Volkov:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer76:

Give it a rest.

I did with the post to Dorosh....see above. </font>
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Hmmm....I guess "those who teach....can't" applies here......

What? That makes no sense. Who's teaching, or claiming to be a teacher? In any case, it's the wrong way round.

Those who can, do

Those who can't, teach.

(a fallacy, to a certain extent)

Does your being a firearms instructor (a teacher) mean you can't shoot? I rather doubt it.

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This might not fit in with this thread but i'll put it in anyway.

years back I talked to a guy who was in Korea, serving in a Scottish regiment ( can't remember which).

Anyway he was talking about going out on patrol, and that compared to the Americans, they were armed with afraction of what the Yanks had. Howevr after a patrol they would come in and hand back what they had left accounting for what they had used. But time and again the american patrols returned with higher casualties and when asked what had happened replied, "We got chewed up because we ran out of ammo".

So if you pardon the inuendo, maybe it's not how much you have but how you use it.

Peter.

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Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

This might not fit in with this thread but i'll put it in anyway.

years back I talked to a guy who was in Korea, serving in a Scottish regiment ( can't remember which).

Anyway he was talking about going out on patrol, and that compared to the Americans, they were armed with afraction of what the Yanks had. Howevr after a patrol they would come in and hand back what they had left accounting for what they had used. But time and again the american patrols returned with higher casualties and when asked what had happened replied, "We got chewed up because we ran out of ammo".

So if you pardon the inuendo, maybe it's not how much you have but how you use it.

Peter.

Canadian soldiers in Korea also wore US helmets because they found that Chinese soldiers opposite them were more lax if they thought they were facing Americans. US troops seem to get a bad rap often in Commonwealth histories of the war. Not to say that they didn't fight bravely (Pork Chop Hill anyone?) but overall, they were....different.

Getting back to the WW II example, there are some marvelous quotes in the history of the 15th Scottish Division about US troops, as well as in The Long Left Flank by Jeffrey Williams, who quotes a Canadian officer as saying that the Americans seemed ill equipped in the winter of 1944 - everyone was cold, he said, but the Americans looked colder. They were fine troops, he concluded, but "their ways were not our ways."

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Originally posted by Volkov:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Big Jim:

Now we just need to work on your grammar... and your manners.

F my manners,,,its against my nature,,,being from NYC grammer isn't important...so a big F to grammer too. [/QB]</font>
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Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Well put. Also aside from Pork Chop Hill, how about Inchon and Chosin.

And for FK, I was a PMI in the end. The USMC likes to take Marines who have killed another human at the distances they train at. 100, 300 and 500 yards. But I only did 9 years in the USMC not 10 or 20. I realised I enjoyed my work to much and needed to get out before I went nuts. PTSD I think they call it....To me my enemy was not human I saw them as rabid animals. I did not hesitate.....and I thought it was fun. Until one day,,then I relized I had to get out... So YES I ended up as a "teacher" becasue I could not shoot (people that is...anymore). And No amount of "book learing" will ever give you the experiance of actually "doing". Media does not give smells, sounds, and sights....I have not meet a "historian" that ever was diagnosed with PTSD. What I was stating earlier inregards to US troops are better shots, was from something you can not get from a book or historian, and its not some badge or something you were on your sleave, what I am talking about is PRIDE. You can quote great books and the such, but one can always find rebuttles. (ie I noticed that the site you talk of, most of the AARs were from the US Army' 38 Cav. The presigious US Cavalry (to Americans that is) We do have a class system here and at the time of WW2 this was very true. A West Point Graduate in command of "dumb farm boys" will be critical. (ie read about the 100 Battlion, Nisai.) You see you can't find pride in a book. You have to have an experiance that develops it. And I can't imagine to many books written by the UK or Canada about the US that portray this. Growing up most Americans thought Custer was a hero, but the fact is that he was a butcher who charged into a Indian ville and killed women an children, that's why the Indians were so relentless in thier fight in the Blackfoot hills. But it was the "historians" that wrote the books and they mention nothing of this. You have to go and talk to the tribesman, A man has a soul that is true. I follow a few rules and 1 is I believe none of what I read and only half of what I see. I have read some reports from our allies.(plz,,I can't remember, but I am sure you can find out) But then I would ask someone who was there,,BIG DIFFERENCE. You boys are not Americans nor am I a Brit or Canadian. You don't know the first this about how we live or how we are raised,,,The US is a big place with a huge mix of people that don't agree with even each other. I could not tell you what its like to be a Brit or a Canadian either...But for you limeys, I have Irish roots and family still in Ireland. I wonder how they would rate you boys? Well I could tell you but you wouldn't like it much. As far as the pride goes,,,one day visit the West Point Museam, Iwo Jima Monument or the USMC Heritage Museam. But closer to home I am sure you can find a Museam about the Battle of Britian,,,I am more that sure there is some pride there...The men involved in that only...oh..I would say SAVED THE WORLD by protecting the very place that would be used to free the world....

Talk to a Vet...if he poises a little straighter holds his head up, and seems to look over you,,,take note you just might be experiancing PRIDE.

As far as the equipment goes...Yes NOT ALL THE TIME we US troops so adiquitly equipt. There are short falls, Read about the Battle at Guadancanal. The ammo and food was at the front of the LSTs..and it ended up on the bottom of the supply piles...I can remember needing 5.56 and getting 60mm motars,,,hmmm...A family member was in the 11th Airborne Division in the PTO,, he tells me a great story about needing ammo and rations...they gave him snowshoes....And to keep in line with the CMAK...the US deployed the M3 Grant/Lee with a 37mm round with 60% charge...not very well planed out...You see as Americans we unfortunaly are reactive...not very proactive..

And finally to Big Jim,,,sorry about the grammer and spelling,,,I type to fast and really don't propf read...just not interested and its not that critical here,,,I am not being graded.... :D

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Originally posted by Volkov:

...just not interested and its not that critical here,,,I am not being graded.... :D

Oh but you are. All you have in this place is what you say, and the way you say it. Your reputation rests nearly entirely on what you write. If you cannot be bothered to put some effort into making that readable, well ...

As for the can-do, can't-teach thing, I have this to say: John Keegan.

Some will understand.

Regards

JonS

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Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Volkov:

...just not interested and its not that critical here,,,I am not being graded.... :D

Oh but you are. All you have in this place is what you say, and the way you say it. Your reputation rests nearly entirely on what you write. If you cannot be bothered to put some effort into making that readable, well ...

As for the can-do, can't-teach thing, I have this to say: John Keegan.

Some will understand.

Regards

JonS </font>

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Do you understand what the phrase 'in this place' means?

George Carlin:

The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other going in opposite directions.

When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show.

When you're born in America, you get a front row seat.

Based on the evidence in this thread, apparently he is spot on. Thanks.

Regards

JonS

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Originally posted by JonS:

Do you understand what the phrase 'in this place' means?

George Carlin:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other going in opposite directions.

When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show.

When you're born in America, you get a front row seat.

Based on the evidence in this thread, apparently he is spot on. Thanks.

Regards

JonS </font>

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You can quote great books and the such, but one can always find rebuttles.
Probably true, but I've not seen any worthwhile ones coming from you.

(ie I noticed that the site you talk of, most of the AARs were from the US Army' 38 Cav. The presigious US Cavalry (to Americans that is)
So your point would be what, exactly?

The documents that you are looking for are entitled "Combat Lessons" as the page is alphabetically ordered, they should be easy enough to find.

I've never met or heard of a historian who contracted PTSD either, but equally, I don't see how that's relevant to the US being better marksmen than everyone else, or not.

Pride is all well and good, and has it's place, but it should not blind you to the mistakes of the past or what could have happened.

Growing up most Americans thought Custer was a hero, but the fact is that he was a butcher who charged into a Indian ville and killed women an children, that's why the Indians were so relentless in thier fight in the Blackfoot hills. But it was the "historians" that wrote the books and they mention nothing of this. You have to go and talk to the tribesman
It was historians who went and talked to the tribesmen, and those that remembered the stories were historians themselves. I don't claim that I have all the answers, (although to a layman it might appear that way) I put the best theory I have forward, and expect it to be challenged. You have sigularly failed to do anything other than act like some stereotypical Vietnam veteran screaming;

"You weren't there, MAN!"

You seem to hold the opinion that one cannot comment on other nations that one is not part of. In that case, you destroy your own case that the US marksmanship is better. You, as you stated, are not a British or Canadian or a German citizen, so how can you comment that their marksmanship was worse?

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Well said, Flamingknives. And Mr. Picky, who has been to South Dakota, will point out that Mr. Volkov is actually talking about the Black Hills, not the Blackfoot Hills. The monument to Crazy Horse, near Custer (ironically enough) will, upon completion, be the largest statue in the world.

cwcrtr27.l.jpg

[ May 16, 2004, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

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Agreed with JonS on Keegan- and Carlin.

Originally posted by Volkov:

As far as the equipment goes...Yes NOT ALL THE TIME we US troops so adiquitly equipt. There are short falls, Read about the Battle at Guadancanal. The ammo and food was at the front of the LSTs..and it ended up on the bottom of the supply piles...I can remember needing 5.56 and getting 60mm motars,,,hmmm...A family member was in the 11th Airborne Division in the PTO,, he tells me a great story about needing ammo and rations...they gave him snowshoes....And to keep in line with the CMAK...the US deployed the M3 Grant/Lee with a 37mm round with 60% charge...not very well planed out...You see as Americans we unfortunaly are reactive...not very proactive..

Now, that is backing up what you say with a fact- not just saying "US troops sometimes had a bad supply situation because of PRIDE". We could be making progress. ;)
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Wow! Took me dang near all day to read this thread....FIREWORKS!.

I can see were Volkov is making a case for pride, BUT nothing else...no support on the Marksman thing. How did this all start,,,ammo loads to pissing match....In regards to the ammo load,,,Volkov is right,,I'll get you guys some info,,,I hope it will help...I do have a copy of the book Volkov keeps refering to. "The Soldier's Load and the Mobility...."on page 32 it says "When the 153rd Infantry Rgt went staggering ashore against the supposedly Japanese-held base at Kiska in the Aleutians, it was an A-1 exibit, not on fighting power, but how the uncontrolled fears of the staff are sometimes permitted to destroy the mobility of fighting bodies. Its load requirements was so extraonrdinary that members of the Regiment preserved the list that in later years they might boast of the unusual trials of soldiers to thier disbelieving civilian friends. This was what each man carried:

Underwear, Shirt(w/o tie), kersey lines trousers, Alaskan Field Jacket, Helmet Steel W/liner, Raincoat, Poncho, Extra shoes, rifle belt, 6 grenades, 240 rounds ammo, rifle, pack board, sleeping bag, 2 shelter halves poles and pins, 12 cans c-rations heat tablets, cook stove. 2 can sterno, long knife, e-tool, bayonet, flashlight, maps, pocketknife, change of clothing, wire cutters, waterproof matchbox, ID panel, Ruck sack, 4 chocolate bars, 3 signal panels, compass...." It goes on to say that an officer who was there said if the Japanese were defending the beach during the landing, they only needed 2 mgs to wipe them out....It also goes on to say that the USMC did better as they went on. They outstripped the Army in getting down to the bare essentials. For what its worth, the US Quartermaster Corps did a study,(WW2) they concluded that the "average American Soldier was 5 feet 8.3 inches tall and weighs 153.6 lbs. And that ment one third of the body weight is his optimum load for marching during the training period. (including the clothing he wears) is slightly more than 51 lbs....and four fifths of the optimum training load for combat..."

Flamingknives, I am afraid that the "specific" information you seek on the American Soldiers Combat load may not be possible because it always varied. Sometimes supply was good, sometimes it was bad. And units going into combat usually took as much as they could carry. And later on learned to "streamline" and only take ammo and water. Airborne Troops sewed on thier own pockets for this purpose. In the North Africa Campigan the US did blundered in regards to combat and logistics. But so did everyone...(heck...we all made it to Italy, so I guess it wasn't that bad). The US Army (WW2) lacked training, especially in desert operations. The military wasn't funded well and there was a-lot of dead weight in higher staff positions. If I recall my history, we were not going to get involved in another "European War" and the Government scaled our military down. We were not ready for Operation Torch or WW2 for that matter. Look at the orders given to the US Pacific Fleet just before Dec 7, 1941. Another lessoned learned(well..we forgot and it took some 59 years and 3 months later to be reminded, Volkov is right about that,,US=reactive)But even with the blunders of Operation Torch Maj-Gen F.W. Von Mellenthin said in his book "Panzer Battles" That Torch was the begining of the end of the Africa Korps and by 1943 he was right.

As far as US Troops (US Army ETO) being better shooters, I am going to disargee. Most of them were draftees who only had basic weapons handling. If someone had said USMC in the PTO then I would say yes, arguably)But this is a CMAK forum Volkov not CMPTO. (YET,,,I HOPE!!!)

And to everyone...Volkov is a bit nuts, (no hard feelings brother,,I'd share a fighting hole with you anytime)...but don't fuel his battiness. He is right about the pride thing, but this is not a pride thread...And the original question was US AMMO LOADS,,,

Flamingknives I hope I have shed light on your question.

Oh! and Volkov, please..if you are going to quote Geroge Carlin...be careful and use an exact quote...he is not to thrilled with the US or its military (although he is funny)...remember he is from probably around your time...he is a smart man but STANDS on the LEFT,,,,I am guessing you stand on the RIGHT...and check with the VA so they can up your meds, remember that they only cost $2...

CAN WE ALL END THIS BICKERING AND GET BACK TO THE ISSUE AT HAND!!!

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OH! I wanted to have the 100th post,,,sorry just being greedy....

Just re-read the marksman stuff...They best marksman were all the cannon cockers of all the nations...Arty accounted for more casualties than small arms...remember you can be cool and say "one shot, one kill" or you can be REALLY cool, with swagger, and say "one shot, one hundred kills" :D

So I guess the marksman thing has been addressed. ;)

[ May 16, 2004, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: SgtDuke6216 ]

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