Kingfish Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 What exactly is the interior layout of the Hetzer? The reason I ask is in CM it shows the TC behind the gun, with a viewport to the right of the gun's barrel. That I assume is the Driver's location. So where do the gunner and loader go? According to Achtung Panzer: Hetzer's interior was cramped for the four-man crew (commander, gunner, loader and driver), because of its sloped armour and low silhouette. Interior was divided into two compartments - engine and fighting/crews compartment. Gunner and loader were located on the left side of the gun; commander was in the rear on the right side of the gun, while the driver in front of the vehicle on the left side of the gun. 3 of 4 crewmen seated to the left of the gun? Doesn't sound right to me. That would mean the gunner sat behind the driver, with the loader behind him. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 I have pictures from the inside of a hetzer, with madmatt in it. Will see if i can get them posted someplace. Anyone got room? Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Rune Is this the one you have inside shots of. Dave 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 The Hetzer was noted for its abominable interior crew layout - gunner on the wrong side of the gun, etc. -dale 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 http://ipmslondon.tripod.com/armourreferencearticles/id26.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Trying again. Dave combatmission.com/Patton/pages 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 The description of the layout is correct Kingfish. The fighting compartment was extremely cramped. In particular the loader was on the wrong side of the gun and the commander separated from the rest of the crew, as described in the following account: Armin about the Hetzer Nowadays I must say I much prefer a JgPz IV 75/L48 to a Hetzer, thanks to lessons learnt in CM M. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 DaveT, that be the beast, have matt inside and all sorts of people looking out the cupola. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 How did they ever get Matt inside a Hetzer? With vaseline and a crowbar? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_Tiger Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Thats a Museeum? Its a shame in which bad shape some of the tanks are in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 http://www.pzfahrer.net/inside_tour.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 I was actually in said hetzer with Matt. It was a bit tight for him, but not completely unreasonable, but there were only two of us. I doubt if they had any drivers over 5'6". As an aside, we were in it for maybe 5 minutes before our combined body heat made us seek an exit. Regarding that layout, it is completely wrong. If anything was to the right of the gun, it was either squshed about in inch wide between the breech and the hull, or outside of the fighting compartment. Working from memory, commander would be in the back left, with loader to his right by the breach. Driver in front left, gunner beside him. Or something like that. WWB [for kicks, <a href="http://www.combatmission.com/Patton/pages/IM002812.htm" target="_blank"> piccie of matt</a> in the hetzer's driver's seat.] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Originally posted by WWB: that layout, it is completely wrong. If anything was to the right of the gun, it was either squshed about in inch wide between the breech and the hull, or outside of the fighting compartment. Huh? I'm confused. The Acht.Pz. layout said; Gunner and loader were located on the left side of the gun; commander was in the rear on the right side of the gun, while the driver in front of the vehicle on the left side of the gun. Seemingly indicating nobody was to the right of the breech? Except the commander, sitting rear and right of the breech. WBW description again; commander would be in the back left, with loader to his right by the breach. Driver in front left, gunner beside him. Or something like that.Meaning roughly the Acht.Pz. layout of; xDrxxxBBx GuxLoxBBx xxxxxxxCo And WBW layout of; xxxxxxBBx DrxGuxBBx CoxxxxLox Seems like two different compartments. Can't tell from the photos. So which is it? Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Originally posted by WWB: Regarding that layout, it is completely wrong. If anything was to the right of the gun, it was either squshed about in inch wide between the breech and the hull, or outside of the fighting compartment. Working from memory, commander would be in the back left, with loader to his right by the breach. Driver in front left, gunner beside him. Or something like that. in the hetzer's driver's seat.] Probably some confusion along the line here, but to clarify: The driver sits on the left side of the gun, behind him sits the gunner and behind him sits the loader/radio operator. The commanders position is behind the gun on the right side of the chassis. Because there is so little space behind the gun the commander sits in a "box" cut out of the engine compartment. The CM:AK model puts the commander in the correct place and it is easy to see the he will actually have the engine to his left when he sits down. Take a look at this picture of a StuG and you'll get the general idea. close up and friendly In a Hetzer the gunner would move forward a bit and the third man would be the loader/radio operator. The commander, as noted earlier, sits on the other side of the chassis. M. [ July 20, 2004, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Mattias ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Ok, makes more sense now, I generally misread the thing. I thought the commander was where the gunner sat (he had all the neat optics). I will reiterate that it was a bit cramped for two, much less four. I would hate to go on a road trip in the thing. WWB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kong Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Thanks for jogging the memory, that was a really fun day. The Hetzer is small, the pictures really don't capture how small it is, especially compared to the other tanks of the era. The inside of every tank I saw that day seemd very small and cramped, even the M4 felt cramped to me and it is comparitively roomy. How the Hetzer crew fought in such a space is simply amazing. K_Tiger most of the pictures are vehicles and equipment in storage that we were allowed to see due to one of our party being active duty at Fort Knox. (Pardon me as his name and handle escapes me). I would say that about 70% of all the equipment that is owned by the museum at Fort Knox is in storage of some sort, with the majority of this needing extensive repair. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spears Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 I thought I read because of the cramped space , they used 3 instead of four, dont know which one was loading but it would seem more reasonable sitting in ambush sweating it out. Make fat joe go get some tea and have more room for oneself 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Heres a shot from behind the commanders station looking towards the front. Note scissor scope for determining range for targets. These devices are being discussed in another thread in CMBB section. Link below shows most info needed about hetzer from a restoration project. http://www.vmmv.org/tanktk/hetzer/hetzer.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Mister Picky wants to point out that is the Swiss version of the Hetzer and slightly different then the German one. Not sure they all had the scissors sscope, the 3 others I had been in, did NOT have them. HOWEVER, since they are all 60 years old, it could be they couldn't find the scopes to put in the rebuild. Rune Edited, I found this: Commander could observe the battlefield using periscopic binoculars, through an open hatch in the roof but overall, his field of view was limited. Found more: The hetzer used the SflZF1a site, which "It is a monocular 5X sight with an eight degree field of view and allows both indirect and direct firing solutions." [ July 21, 2004, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: rune ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 For those of you that havent read the other thread (Panther Fibel Range Estimation) at CMBB, its apparrent that StuGs, Hetzers, Jagdpanzer IV, Jagdpanther and Jagdtiger ALL used these range finding scopes. There is some evidence that some panzers would use them also but not as standard equipment. These were used by the commander and sights like the SflZF1a were for the gunner to use. Is Mr. Picky confusing them? I imagine the Hetzer commander would try to fight somewhat opened up. He had an access hatch that was actually behind these scissor scopes and gave him some protection as it was on the rear slope of the vehicle. He would call out the targets and feed the range/direction data to the gunner. He would also followup on shots with corrections. A Hetzer that was fully buttoned up with scissor scopes retracted would be very blind. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 The gunners mono sight and commanders scissors sight are seen in this pic. Note that the remote control MG had a periscope also and even if buttoned up, would allow some shooting/observation for the vehicle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Hello Gentlemen, Here are some interesting pictures of the interior of the Hetzer Jagdpanzer. View of Hetzer tank showing periscopes and part of interior - on the right is recoil mechanism for main gun - on the left is the brown handle for the machine gun. and just to leeft of the periscope is the contol for the range finder. The white bar is part of the swivel mechanism for turning the periscope. View of interior of Hetzer showing periscopes. The white bar in center is a lever attached to the periscopes to operate them. In the lower center rear is the breach of the 75 mm gun. On the right is part of the ammunition rack. View of part of interior of Hetzer tank showing some controls and view ports. View of interior of Hetzer showing part of driver's position with seat on left and cover of transmission on right. The black cylinder in front of the seat is the drive train to the sprocket wheel outside. Here is the direct link to the website . Hope it helps somebody to figure out 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 It appears that the Hetzer commander, while not in close proximity to the gunner like a StuG commader, still had some contact with the crew besides the intercom. It does not appear that he could get to the other compartment without exiting his hatch and entering the other. The StuGIII layout allowed the AFV crewmen to act like a very closely coordinated team. The commander/gunner/driver 'daisychain' would facilitate pointing the vehicle, targeting enemy, sharing info, etc. Crewmen could replace each other in an emergency. The TC could help the loader. The Hetzer is really a refined SPAT with good frontal armor. It would be best off taking on enemy at maximum range and not exposing itself unless hulldown. It would truly be a troublemaker. The side armor on a Hetzer is so thin that I wonder why they just did not put an extra escape door on the left side. It seems all three crewmen had to exit the vehicle via one hatch. Loader, gunner, driver in that order. Being a driver in one of these things took guts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Sounds right. Here is another good article about the main drawbacks of the cramped AFV interior. Personally, I do not consider the Hetzer to be one of the more advanced tank destroyers of WW2. It was an improvement over the self-propelled AT guns the Infantry Divisions had to rely on, but that's all. The gun itself was excellent, but its location in the vehicle was a major drawback. The main fault lies in the positioning of the crew members, forced by the off-center mounting of the armament, and was by far the worst of any of the numerous German vehicles of the limited traverse category. This type of vehicle depends on the closest cooperation between commander, gunner and driver to locate targets and aim the vehicle and gun at them. This teamwork was especially important in the Hetzer, with the smallest amount of traverse of any type in service, 16 degrees. It is disasterous to rip this team apart, but it was done here, and the commander was stuck in a box cut out from the engine compartment and separated from the rest of his crew by the gun in front of his belly. Due to his position so far back, a large area in front of the vehicle was outside his vision. Observation was very difficult and smoke from the gun directly in front of him made it worse. I also want to point out his very limited provision of periscopes, as compared to other TD models, which didn't help matters either. Due to the limited traverse to the left of only 5 degrees, the driver was forced to position the vehicle at an angle, to give the gunner a chance to follow targets moving to the left, and this started to expose the thinner 20mm side armor, the weakest of any German tank destroyer. Any traverse to the right, which was 11 degrees, pushed the loader away from his main supply of ammunition underneath the gun and on the right wall opposite from him. The Pak 39 was designed for right side operation, but since the loader was seated to the left of the gun, he had to load over the solid deflector screen instead of the low-mounted bar on the right, designed for this purpose. All controls were mounted on the right side of the breech ring, operating lever, safety switch and extractor release, and he had to lean over the gunner and breech to reach them. Opening the breechblock for the first round, unloading the gun, not to mention the removal of jammed cartridge cases, required almost acrobatic skills. His movements were somewhat restricted by the controls for the MG mount sticking down from the ceiling. The idea of the remote control MG was very good, but since it was drum-fed from 50-round drums, reloading had to be frequent, and this was something else!! The hatches could only be opened when the MG was turned sideways, and the loader's movements to attach a new drum (and much more to handle jammed cases), were restricted by the side shields of the mount. On the positive side this shield did provide a bit of cover for him. By the way, all 3 crew members on the left had to bail out through this hatch, the commander was privileged in this respect. Full article here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 You'll note on StuGs and several JpZs the foreward part of the commander's hatch can flip back in order to use scissor binoculars as well. Those extended binocs appear to be pretty much 'standard issue' among assault guns. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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