Russian Tankers in Shermans - Only M4A2's to Russia?

[WineCape]

Interesting account on a Russian "Emcha" Tanker, Dmitriy Loza, here.

Question:

(1) He asserts that in late 1943 his brigade received the long barreled Sherman - I assume the 76mm/L52 M4A2. Can this be correct or are his dates haywire?

(2) I'm aware that the 76/L52 M4A2 variant only came available in the following year, 1944.

(3) AFAIK the A2's were the only variants send on the lend-lease program?

(4) I've also read that the USA did not use the A2 in at all during combat in ETO. Any reason?

Much obliged in advance,

Charl

[ August 05, 2005, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: WineCape ]

[Michael Emrys]

Right. The M4A2 (76mm) was produced by Grand Blanc June-December 1944 and in a very small quantity by Pressed Steel May-June 1945. He must have gotten the dates wrong.

Except for some used by the USMC, they all went to Lend-Lease, the reason being that they used twin diesel engines.

Michael

[WineCape]

Hey, you're useful Michael... Many thanks.

[MikeyD]

Here's what the Russian Battlefield site says on the subject:

Lend Lease Shermans

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Here's what the Russian Battlefield site says on the subject:

Lend Lease Shermans

I couldn't find anything there that helps the question at hand.

Another thought occurred to me about the original post. Could Loza have possibly meant the 75mm armed M4A2? Production of those ran from April 1942 to May 1944, so there would have been plenty of time for him to get his in late '43. I didn't think this the likely explanation, so I didn't mention it in my first post. But it might bear thinking about.

Michael

[DEY]

I never read through the whole story from the OP, but the only reference I could find was this in what I did read.

My unit switched over to American Shermans at the end of 1943.

I don't see anything regarding long barrel guns in the above quote.

A not so good book I have states that the M4A2 was equipped with all three gun versions, but I doubt if the M1 gun was fitted until the latter part of it's manufacture run.

Also in regards to Shermans sent to Russian there was apparently a short manufacture run made of a odd engine equipped M4A6, about 100 made with a 500hp caterpillar diesel engine, mostly all of these where sent to the Soviet Union.

http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m4sherman.html

[Michael Emrys]

Chamberlain & Ellis claim that 75 were built between October 1943 and February 1944. They also state that the engine produced 450 hp. FWIW.

Michael

[WineCape]

Most probably it is the 1942 introduced 75mm M4A2 (75/L38), but Loza mentions a "long barrel" several times? He doesn't state what exact model they were using though, and admittedly he doesn't recount specifics when asked by the interviewer.

[WineCape]

Dey,

- In your book "Commanding the Red Army's Sherman Tanks" you wrote that the 233rd Tank Brigade's M4A2 Shermans were armed not with the short-barreled 75mm but the long-barreled 76mm main gun in January 1944. Wasn't this a bit early? Didn't these tanks appear later? Explain one more time which main guns were mounted on the Shermans of the 233rd Tank Brigade."

[Loza] - Hmm, I don't know. We had very few Shermans with the short-barreled main gun. On the whole, ours had long-barrels. Not just our brigade fought on Shermans. Perhaps these were in other brigades. Somewhere in the corps I saw such tanks, but we had the tanks with the long barrels.

He's referring to the lend-lease long barreled Sherman M4A2 (76/L52 gun). AFAIK, it was introduced in May/June 1944.

[ August 06, 2005, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: WineCape ]

[JasonC]

The A2 was the last model to get 76mm guns, in May of 44. But it is entirely possible he is just right and had a 76mm Sherman well before then. It is true the A2 diesels practically all went to Russia, but it is not true that all Shermans that went to Russia were A2s.

The A1 with 76mm came out on January 1944. It was exported and used by the Brits as the IIA. (Not the Firefly, which is a IIC). A1 series were being regularly exported LL, to the Brits rather than the Russians mostly, but being exported. (The A4s were also mostly for export, to the Brits, as the Sherman V).

Part of the confusion may be the original poster thinking the A2 designation has something to do with the gun - it does not. It means "GM". A1 means "Continental" (and a grab bag of train car companies it is true), A3 means "Ford", A4 (and the plain M4 with nothing added) means "Chrysler" - to a first approximation anyway. They are more like auto company brands specifying the producer and "make".

Since there were 76mm made for export as early as January 44, it is entirely possible this particular tanker had an M4A1(76), aka a Sherman IIA passed on to the Russians.

[WineCape]

Jason,

I'm amazed at your typing skills. Many thanks for the info.

[MikeyD]

Ah, I just thought. I believe I've seen photos of late hull 75mm gun M4A3s in Russian use. Of course M4A2 and M4A3 engine decks & rears looked somewhat similar so I may be mistaken.

[WineCape]

Ehh Mikey,

You mean to say you're not sure; after all these years painting beauty Shermans and dollying them up for our pleasure...

[Andreas]

Which version is this then?

[Aco4bn187inf]

Posted by Jason C.-

Part of the confusion may be the original poster thinking the A2 designation has something to do with the gun - it does not. It means "GM". A1 means "Continental" (and a grab bag of train car companies it is true), A3 means "Ford", A4 (and the plain M4 with nothing added) means "Chrysler" - to a first approximation anyway. They are more like auto company brands specifying the producer and "make".

--------------

This is interesting to learn. I recently ran into an elderly gentleman wearing an 8th Armored Division cap. I talked to him a while and asked him what kind of tanks he served in. Were they Shermans? He said he didn't know what they were called but they were made by Chrysler. "Chryslers!" he said.

This seems to imply that names like Sherman were not so widely used by the tank crews, which was a little surprising to me.

"Ah, those were sharp times," he said.

[MikeyD]

The most obvious feature of the different marks of Sherman tank is the engine deck - the M4A2's a diesel and is readily apparent from the rear. For the front, you've really got to study a Sherman photo closely to peg the differences between manufacturers. Andreas' photos are a bit small to be able to discern in what pattern the different bow pieces were welded together. Not being near my references I'd say they *might* be standard M4s.

But its SOOOOO hard to tell early Sherman types just from the front!

[JasonC]

Those are plain M4s, no "A" attached. Made by Chrysler and one of the earliest models. You can tell from two things - that distinctive bolted 3-piece nose with the high ridges and visible bolts was only used on the plain M4 and the M4A1. But the M4A1 had a smoothly curved, cast shape to the upper hull sides, while these are clearly the boxey, bolted type.

[Soddball]

My source (which is all in Russian and is almost incomprehensible to me, except for a couple of the tables and the photos which have English captions) has the following numbers of M4A2 used by Russia:

1942: 36

1943: 469

1944: 2345

1945: 814

Total: 3664

There are also pictures of 76mm armed Shermans fighting with 9th Guards Mechanised Corps, 6th Guards Tank Army, in April 1945.

[Andreas]

Thanks, pictures are from before 1944, near Leningrad.

Larger version on Beobachtungsabteilung, under 'Tanks and Guns'.

All the best

Andreas

[Bigduke6]

Sodball,

If I can get a look at your source (mebbe it's on the net, mebbe you can send me a scan or sumfink) I'll be glad to translate, I am such a Soviet grog I learned their language!

[Soddball]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

Sodball,

If I can get a look at your source (mebbe it's on the net, mebbe you can send me a scan or sumfink) I'll be glad to translate, I am such a Soviet grog I learned their language!

Bigduke - it's a 23MB PDF file. I'll put it up on my webspace and post the link here for people to take a copy.

[Soddball]

Okay, it's up on the interweb.

Should be at the bottom of the list, past all the photos, - make sure you Save Target As or it'll crash Acrobat Reader.

Let me know if you can make any sense of it. I found the pictures interesting since it covers all lend lease - including Grants, M10s, Valentines, Churchills etc. I was also surprised that it continued into 1945.

[JasonC]

Some useful but apparently not exhaustive LL AFV accounting, types, and units so equipped at various dates -

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons/tanks4.htm

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons/LL_general1.htm

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons/LL_WF41_42.htm

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons/LL2.htm

Note that the many entries in the table that are just "Mark this" or "Mk that" are all Valentines, various model numbers. M3L, short for "light tank, M3" means a Stuart, while M3M, short for "medium tank, M3" means a Grant.

Also has this on captured tanks -

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons/Capturedtanks.htm

Much finer data than one usually gets in overall LL accounting (though the first has those usual figures), and specific as to units and date. But not exhaustive it appears - these had these types, but others not listed might have had additional LL tanks on the same dates etc.

I don't see M4s besides M4A2s listed. There are entries for M10s.

Also interesting are the lost in transit figures - 1500 tanks and 500 armored personnel carriers, which have to be awarded to U-boats and JU-88s out of Norway. Rather a lot, really.

[Bigduke6]

Whoops, my home reader can't handle it, I'll take a look at it on Monday, pls stand by.

Originally posted by Soddball:

Okay, it's up on the interweb.

Should be at the bottom of the list, past all the photos, - make sure you Save Target As or it'll crash Acrobat Reader.

Let me know if you can make any sense of it. I found the pictures interesting since it covers all lend lease - including Grants, M10s, Valentines, Churchills etc. I was also surprised that it continued into 1945.

[Stalin's Organ]

FWIW, from http://islandhosting.com/~ltmurnau/text/stlnynks.htm

M4A2 and M4A4 Sherman - About 2,000 of the M4A2 model were shipped, beginning at the end of 1943. These carried the standard "short" 75mm gun. Beginning in early 1944, M4A4 Shermans with the higher-velocity, more accurate 76mm gun began to arrive, and a total of about 2,100 had been sent by the end of the year. The 3rd Guards Tank Corps was equipped mainly with Shermans.