OFFICIAL PATCH REQUESTS and BUG REPORTS Thread

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

Gosh Romulus has certainly put me to shame with his presentation "Oob" and "TO&E" not only can he do bullet points, he types and can spell in English as well!

See my next post...

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Romulus:

[QB] I have to make the following remarks about the Italian Army units. The remarks with a * denote the points that I personally deem very important.

The lack of the following AFVs and support units

1.* The Italians produced 30 units of the Semovente M41 (with the M14/41 chassis) da 90/53 which were assigned to the X Raggruppamento (3 groups of 10 semoventi each) which fought in Sicily until its complete annihilation in July-August 1943.

So what? What dates should they be available from, what dates should they be available until? I hardly think 30 units of any vehicle is really reason to include it in the game, frankly. Can you make a case for its use by other units?

2. The truck mounted 102/35 naval guns. A battalion of (truck mounted) 102/35 guns was even attached to the "Ariete" Armoured Division.

What about them? When did they become available, how long were they used, and in what number, by whom?

It is very easy to pull names of kit off of a laundry list. Perhaps the reason that this stuff hasn't been included is because no one really knows who used it, when, or in what numbers? I could pick the Johnson LMG off a list of stuff that was definitely used in Italy. Once I did some research and found out it was only used by the First Special Service Force, it's necessity for inclusion drops...

3.* The Italian manned Flak 88/56: the German manufactured AA/AT guns were assigned to several artillery battalions, for example the 6th Artillery Bn (attached to the "Ariete" Armoured Division) and a Bn of the 1st "Celere" Artillery Regt (27th "Brescia" Infantry Division).

When?

4. The M15/42. Italy produced 90 Carri M15/42 which were assigned to the "Lancieri Vittorio Emanuele" of the "Ariete II" Armoured Division. Hence they were employed in Italy until the 8th September 1943 Armistice, then they were captured and employed by the Germans.

Starting when?

The lack of the following infantry units in the OoB:

1.* The Marines Battalions, which were part of the "San Marco" Rgt and were employed in the Hecker Group (from February 42).

How were they different in practical, game, terms from the other Italian infantry units in the game?

2. The Carabinieri parachute Battalion (its TO&E should differ from that of the Army parachute battalion).

How?

3.* The Bersaglieri MC battalion and company: every Bersaglieri Regiment (until june 42 and then in July-August 43) consisted of two motorized battalions (which are present in CMAK) and of one motorcycle battalion (e.g. the 9th Rgt) or at least a motorcycle company (e.g. the 8th Rgt).

The Bersaglieri MC Bn organization was:

3 x Bers. MC Rifle Company

3 x Rifle plt (of 4 squads each)

1 x MG plt (4 squads)

The equipment: 36 LMG, 12 MMG

Did they use their motorcycles in combat?

4. Every motorized and swift ("celere") division included an infantry motorcycle company which cannot be found in CMAK.

Did they ride their motorcycles in combat?

If not, were they really used for roles other than reconaissance? Recce Regiments aren't portrayed in CM either (from any nationality).

5.* The Libyan Battalions. I know it can be argued that they are not featured for the same reasons the Indians were left out but I would prefer to have them even if they do speak Italian instead of their native language. That's because they represented about the 10-12% of the entire Italian Army in North Africa especially in the first stages (1940-41) of the war.

If their TO&E didn't differ from any other Italian unit, what difference does it make?

6.* The Eastern Africa colonial troops. They were a considerable part of the Italian Army in that theatre (7051 officers, 9925 NCOs, 74216 Italian privates and 274028 colonial privates). Moreover they had quite different equipment: the Mannlicher rifle and mainly the Schwarzlose MG.

The EA Colonial Battalions had 3 companies of 3 platoons + 1 MG company (18 LMG, 9 HMG).

Were these differences noticeable in game terms?

7. The motorized MG battalion which was assigned to the (few) motorized divisions. It consisted of 4 companies of 3 platoons (48 MGs).

MG battalions in the German, British, and Canadian armies are not represented either. These are support battalions at a divisional level and arguably there is no place for them, or else arguably they are very much represented by the support units already in CM.

8. The "Folgore" Parachute Division, deployed in Northern Africa from July 41, included also an Airborne Engineer Battalion (Battaglione Guastatori).

This is a good one. Were the engineers present throughout the fighting? Is there really not an airborne engineer battalion in the game already?

Some inaccuracies about specific AFVs:

1.* In CMAK the 75/18 gun's performance (mounted on the Semoventi M40 and M41) is underated: in the game it is not even able to penetrate a 50mm armor from a 100m distance while it was well known and popular (among the Italian crews) since it had a higher penetration power than the 47/32 gun (mounted on the M13/40 and on the M14/41). There are several AARs that maintain that it could penetrate 50mm at 1000 yards (this is reported even in Greene & Massignani "Rommel's North Africa Campaign" p136). The point is that the Italians did use a hollow charge shell, called "Effetto Pronto" that make a higher penetration power possible for the 75/18 gun.

Another problem about the Semovente da 75/18 (so as the L40 da 47/32) is the lack of the 8mm (bow) MG.

Good

2. In CMAK the Semovente da 75/32 is equipped with a 75/34 gun while it should be equipped with a 75/32 gun (guess it is a misprint). Maybe the confusion was generated by the fact that there were two different semoventi: the M41 da 75/32 and the M42 da 75/34 (90 units employed only by the Germans after the 8th Sept 43 Armistice and never employed by the Italians).

good

I am working on the planes availability dates. Hope to find something interesting.

The most useful way to report errors would be to post

a) what is available in CM

what should be available in CM

c) what changes would have to be made

ie

a) Type X aircraft available June 41 to Aug 43

this type of aircraft was only available beginning in June 1942

c) Remove this plane from the game for months of Jun 41 - to May 42 inclusive as historically they did not exist.

[flammenwerfer]

Romulus-

Welcome to the forum and thanks for contributing. Please excuse the rudeness of certain posters.

[Michael Dorosh]

Romulus - I've added your points on Italian guns to the first post. If you could provide some specific suggestions re: engineers, etc., I can add them as well.

Say hello to Flammenwerfer, by the way, he is apparently the moral compass of the forum.

[Andreas]

Mike, minor point on your response to Romulus - German recce formations are included in the game. E.g. Jaeger Aufklaerungs Battalion 44 in CMAK, and a host of them in CMBB.

[Newbtler]

Hi everybody,

thanks Dorosh for making this thread, it helps a lot.

Romolus, you wrote: "...Another problem about the Semovente da 75/18 (so as the L40 da 47/32) is the lack of the 8mm (bow) MG..."

IIRC, these Semoventi didn't have a bow MG. The 75/18 had a Breda 30 LMG stored inside, and could be used by its crew just in case.

I think the same was for the L40.

Can anyone help me out in searching when exactly Italian tanks had radios installed? In which period?

Cheers,

Riccardo

[Amedeo]

Regarding the recent patch requests for the Italians I'd like to point out a couple of things:

- Effetto pronto rounds were akin to HESH rounds and were produced for guns of 47mm, 65mm, 75mm and 100mm calibre. Around 1942 were fielded the Effetto Pronto Speciale rounds that were true HEAT and were based on german hollow charge rounds design.

- The Paracadutisti helmet is different to that of the other branches of service. I suggest to create a new 3D model and use it (with different bitmaps) for both N.A. and Italy.

Regards,

Amedeo

[Mark Gallear]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Romulus:

[QB] I have to make the following remarks about the Italian Army units. The remarks with a * denote the points that I personally deem very important.

The lack of the following AFVs and support units

1.* The Italians produced 30 units of the Semovente M41 (with the M14/41 chassis) da 90/53 which were assigned to the X Raggruppamento (3 groups of 10 semoventi each) which fought in Sicily until its complete annihilation in July-August 1943.

So what? What dates should they be available from, what dates should they be available until? I hardly think 30 units of any vehicle is really reason to include it in the game, frankly. Can you make a case for its use by other units?

2. The truck mounted 102/35 naval guns. A battalion of (truck mounted) 102/35 guns was even attached to the "Ariete" Armoured Division.

What about them? When did they become available, how long were they used, and in what number, by whom?

It is very easy to pull names of kit off of a laundry list. Perhaps the reason that this stuff hasn't been included is because no one really knows who used it, when, or in what numbers? I could pick the Johnson LMG off a list of stuff that was definitely used in Italy. Once I did some research and found out it was only used by the First Special Service Force, it's necessity for inclusion drops...

3.* The Italian manned Flak 88/56: the German manufactured AA/AT guns were assigned to several artillery battalions, for example the 6th Artillery Bn (attached to the "Ariete" Armoured Division) and a Bn of the 1st "Celere" Artillery Regt (27th "Brescia" Infantry Division).

When?

4. The M15/42. Italy produced 90 Carri M15/42 which were assigned to the "Lancieri Vittorio Emanuele" of the "Ariete II" Armoured Division. Hence they were employed in Italy until the 8th September 1943 Armistice, then they were captured and employed by the Germans.

Starting when?

etc

etc

</font>

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Mike, minor point on your response to Romulus - German recce formations are included in the game. E.g. Jaeger Aufklaerungs Battalion 44 in CMAK, and a host of them in CMBB.

I appreciate the clarification. I was thinking of the motorized recce units. I'm most familiar with Canadian recce formations, and they all seem to have been heavily armour based; infantry division recce had armoured cars whil armoured division recce had tanks. Armoured formations are not represented in game (this included Kradschützen units for the Germans).

The Jäger recce unit may have been included as it was infantry-based?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Amedeo:

Regarding the recent patch requests for the Italians I'd like to point out a couple of things:

- Effetto pronto rounds were akin to HESH rounds and were produced for guns of 47mm, 65mm, 75mm and 100mm calibre. Around 1942 were fielded the Effetto Pronto Speciale rounds that were true HEAT and were based on german hollow charge rounds design.

Amedeo

Amedeo - I take it neither of these are actually in CM? Do you have a more precise date for their introduction? Does your post refer to one round type, or two? From the sounds of it, you are saying Effetto Pronto (akin to HESH) were used early in the war, and an improved round (akin to HEAT) were used sometime in 1942 onwards?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Newbtler:

Hi everybody,

thanks Dorosh for making this thread, it helps a lot.

Romolus, you wrote: "...Another problem about the Semovente da 75/18 (so as the L40 da 47/32) is the lack of the 8mm (bow) MG..."

IIRC, these Semoventi didn't have a bow MG. The 75/18 had a Breda 30 LMG stored inside, and could be used by its crew just in case.

I think the same was for the L40.

Thanks Newbtler - I'm going to hold off adding this to the first thread, then, unless someone can confirm that this is in error in the game.

[ January 26, 2004, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

Mr Dorosh is upset about the Motorcycle troops as CM does not do Motorcycles or for that matter bicycles - amazed the German players have not moaned about their lack of zippy recon troops in their Zundap Combos - you have to do an LMG in a Kublewagon for CMBB! Don't see why they cannot be included dismounted rather than ignored completely! (There are recon troops in the game!)

True enough, assuming they commonly operated dismounted.

Anyway, has Mr Dorosh got his head round how I did my post yet - systematically month by month as it appears from checking each possible month during the war for a QB? Or do I have to do it again using bullet points with Roman numerals

If you want to email the list to me again I would like to include it.

[Mark Gallear]

Ok I will do that.

It would help me to understand the QB lists if somebody from BFC could do a quick explanation of how rarity works - this is not transparent to the CM system!

I) how its rated is it common, uncommon, rare

II) how its defined - figures on vehicles produced - if only a gut feeling on some equipment, etc

III) the effects - expense, if vehicles are always available etc,

and most importanly the reasons behind the system - what it was meant to model and achieve :cool: .

[Romulus]

I apologize for the length of the present message but I had to quote other people who had quoted myself in order to make it all clear. Also, I apologize if I was not precise about some data but I did omit some information because I thought it would be quite easy to acquire through the suggested CMAK bibliography.

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Romulus:

[QB] I have to make the following remarks about the Italian Army units. The remarks with a * denote the points that I personally deem very important.

The lack of the following AFVs and support units

1.* The Italians produced 30 units of the Semovente M41 (with the M14/41 chassis) da 90/53 which were assigned to the X Raggruppamento (3 groups of 10 semoventi each) which fought in Sicily until its complete annihilation in July-August 1943.

So what? What dates should they be available from, what dates should they be available until?

</font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

Mike, minor point on your response to Romulus - German recce formations are included in the game. E.g. Jaeger Aufklaerungs Battalion 44 in CMAK, and a host of them in CMBB.

I appreciate the clarification. I was thinking of the motorized recce units. I'm most familiar with Canadian recce formations, and they all seem to have been heavily armour based; infantry division recce had armoured cars whil armoured division recce had tanks. Armoured formations are not represented in game (this included Kradschützen units for the Germans).

The Jäger recce unit may have been included as it was infantry-based? </font>

[JonS]

Originally posted by Andreas:

According to John 'where is he?' Salt's Britorg.rtf document, Commonwealth infantry recce regiments had an assault troop, which was an infantry formation.

According to this ever-popular site, each squadron had an assault troop (giving three such in the regt). Organisation was quite different to a regular infantry pn. The sqn was rounded out by by three Scout Tps, each consisiting of a mix of carriers (10), armoured cars (3), and light recce cars (2). The Recce Regts also had an A-Tk Bty and a mortar pn.

Regards

JonS

[Mark Gallear]

In Italy - a typical Recce Squadron would be:

Troops 1-3 Reconnaissance troops Each 3X Daimler Scout Car

Troops 4-6 Armoured Car Troops Each 3 X Staghounds

Troop 7 Support Troop one Scout cat - troop leader

4 X White Scout cars - "assault" personnel

Troop 8 Heavy troop one Scout car - troop leader

2 X half-tacked Whites with 75mm guns

Squadron HQ

4 x Staghounds 2 x Scout Cars

Modern British Army TO&Es still refer to it as the Support Troop.

Sorry JohnS I couldn't resist! PS You never finished explaining your cryptic Wasp comment.

This link has the Salt info for download.

http://www.britwar.co.uk/index.php?module=phatfile&FILE_MAN_OP=Main&MMN_position=4:4

[ January 27, 2004, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[flamingknives]

Referring to my personal favourite, (Geroge Forty's "British Army Handbook") the assault troop of an infantry division Recce regt. consists of 4 8 man sections (7 + driver) which is modelled in CMAK.

The Regt. also contains 3 recce troops (each 4 Light Recon Cars and 2 x 3 carriers) 8 ATGs and 6 3" mortars. The Carriers were replaced with ACs and LRCs just prior to the end of the fighting in Africa.

[Mark Gallear]

But FlamingKnives can you get Mr Forty's theoretical 8 man squads in the White Scout Car ?

I did quote from an actual Squadron organization in Italy for an Armoured Division Recce Regiment.

Although Forty's appears to be from "Only the Enemy in Front" and is for Tunisian campaign. LRCs date from Mid - Late desert war. Infantry are in light trucks. (So for once Mr Forty is not all that theoretical!)

I'm just splitting hairs does not matter in CM if you call in the Assault troop or the Support Troop. Didn’t know that CMAK did any squadron organizations let alone an Infantry Division Recce Regiment !

(Edited addition)

The point is you are going to have a hard time recreating this formation in CM.

The Humber LRC appears at the wrong date and is just the Damiler Scout 3d model - it looks much more like the Marmon-Harington AC. As does the Morris LRC which is totally missing.

The small 15cwt truck is also missing from the game, it has a different capacity from the standard 'CM truck' and was used in Jeep type roles before this vehicle appeared.

(Edited for Additional point) If the Assault troops in the listings are supposed to be the troops supporting these Recce Squadrons - they had 2inch mortars, PIATs/Boys AT rifle much in the same way as a carier infantry section would have been equipped. The current representation is more like an ad hoc patol. Another good reason to do a dismounted representation. They should also be bought with the light trucks or for later Armoured Recce sections the white scout car.

Edited to add more Information:

Logistics of a Recce Regiment

http://www.britishsoldier.com/logistic.htm

Excellent site with organization and vehicles.

Site with pictures of a number of British AC and LRCs

http://www.geocities.com/britsatwar/armoured_vehicles.html

Site suggests 51st Highlands did not use the Humber LRC in Tunisia

http://apma.org.au/thinktank/thinktank0077.txt

Wwiivehicles gives a date of Nov 1942 for Humber LRC III in the desert. I would have thought earlier versions were used in the Desert before then?

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/britain/asl_wheeled_vehicles.html

On the Morris LRC, dates on production on the sources I found vary from 2200 in late 1940s to 1000 Mk I vehicles were built in two batches from early 1942 to mid 1943 and a further 1050 improved Mk II with four wheel drive superseded it from late 1943 onwards. It may have been limited to use by the Royal Engineers and RAF for airfield defence.

http://www.geocities.com/britsatwar/morris_recce_car

3 man crew, top speed of 80kmph, 14mm of armour and was armed with a Bren and Boys AT Rifle.

Model site with some details

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/britain/morris/pbmorris.htm

(Edited Addition for JohnS) It is a single Squadron from an Armoured Division Recce Regiment - which is supposed to have three. (Flamingknives is again a Squadron from an Infantry Division Recce Regimnent)

It is a listing for the 46th Reconnaissance Regiment in October 1944, it is diffrent from its War Establishment as C Squadron was missing its "assault troop". Each scout troop was missing a carrier section. Source Featherstone.

Sorry to butt into your private club and go off on a tangent but at least I listed the called for link

You never got off your mountain to explain your cryptic comment on Wasps to a mere mortal like me.

[ January 28, 2004, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[JonS]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

Sorry JohnS I couldn't resist!

Couldn't resist what exactly? Poor grammar, bad spelling, going off on tangents, being unclear, being imprecise, being wrong? Which is it, or is it all of the above?

Could you be more specific about which org you have outlined above? Was it an Armoured Car Regt, an Armoured Recce Regt, or a Divisional Recce Regt, or a Div Cav Regt? Which year is it from, and what is your source?

[ January 26, 2004, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Redwolf]

Seems to me the supression when firing from houses is not broken for Panzerfausts.

[MAsta_KFC]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Seems to me the supression when firing from houses is not broken for Panzerfausts.

Really? I'll check again Redwolf, but I swear I even saw yesterday a german squad firing a Pf-60 at a car and no suppression. I'll double check tonight.

[Amedeo]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Amedeo:

Regarding the recent patch requests for the Italians I'd like to point out a couple of things:

- Effetto pronto rounds were akin to HESH rounds and were produced for guns of 47mm, 65mm, 75mm and 100mm calibre. Around 1942 were fielded the Effetto Pronto Speciale rounds that were true HEAT and were based on german hollow charge rounds design.

Amedeo

Amedeo - I take it neither of these are actually in CM? Do you have a more precise date for their introduction? Does your post refer to one round type, or two? From the sounds of it, you are saying Effetto Pronto (akin to HESH) were used early in the war, and an improved round (akin to HEAT) were used sometime in 1942 onwards? </font>

[MAsta_KFC]

Originally posted by MAsta_KFC:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

Seems to me the supression when firing from houses is not broken for Panzerfausts.

Really? I'll check again Redwolf, but I swear I even saw yesterday a german squad firing a Pf-60 at a car and no suppression. I'll double check tonight. </font>

[CombinedArms]

I want to raise the issue of the widespread presence of flamethrowers in British infantry units in Italy, late war. Someone raised this issue in passing in the first official "bug" thread, but I'd like to raise it in a more focused way. The units of the British Rifle Platoon '44 each come equipped with an organic flamethrower team. Yet according to my reading, the British never had much confidence in hand-held FT's and actually phased them out in the late war (instead of making them organic, as CMAK seems to show.) Instead, they went to vehicle mounted flamethrowers.

Here's all that this website has to say about Brit backpack FT use. Doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement to me:

"The British Army was never very taken with the flamethrower for any number of reasons.  They were of little use in the desert where the Army had spent most of its time fighting up to 1943, but for the upcoming invasion of Europe it was realised that they would be needed.

The Number 2 replaced its unsuccessful predecessor during 1944 and saw some limited service.  The British Army greatly valued their armoured 'funnies' and it was the Churchill based Crocodile and the carrier converted Wasp which were the more usual platforms.  The backpack flamethrower concept was not pursued further by the British."

So, I'd like to raise this issue with BFC. Is there a rationale to justify making the FT (which I find very hard to use effectively in the CM context) an organic part of the British platoon in late '44-45? And if not, could it possibly be removed in the new version? I'm also wondering about the 2 FTs per platoon in the US engineer platoon. Is that really a realistic figure?