Chemical Weapons for the ETO

[MPK]

Recently came across this account,

found it interesting...and horrible.

"In December 1943 a German bomber

flew over the Italian harbour of

Bari and inflicted a good deal of

damage to newly-arrived American

stores destined for the use of

Allied troops in Northern Europe."

"Amongst the cargo was a top-secret

consignment of mustard gas, ready

for use against the German forces

if they employed any against the

Allies. Over 100 tons of the gas-

filled shells were still in the

hold of the SS John Harvey when the

raid occurred."

"Many of the shells (the exact number

is uncertain) were damaged and their

contents spread across the surface of

the water in the dock,where sailors

were swimming or hanging on to debris

awaiting rescue after the raid. No-one

noticed the damaged shells at first,

and the thin traces of liquid floating

on the water were not spotted by anyone

in the confusion, although some sailors

did notice 'a slight smell like garlic'.

"Four or five hours later the first of

the victims were dying. Within the next

few days a total of eighty-three sailors

lost their lives from pneumonia and lung

damage caused by the gas, and some 540

were seriously ill as a result of their

contact with the chemical..."

[Ford, Brian J,(1971)'Allied Secret

Weapons: the War of Science' Ballantine,

Ney York]

[gibsonm]

I don’t think any one can be on the moral high ground with this. Churchill approved testing / development of Anthrax is case SEALION actually happened.

I’m sure that the Germans and Soviets also had supplies but I suspect that either through their own personal experience of their effects (Hitler) and the lack of any credible defence for their own troops for the inevitable counter strike, that no one wanted to employ them first.

Besides for the Allies there was no need to resort to these options from ‘44 on as their conventional forces were more than adequate.

The prospect of V1‘s and V2’s loaded with gas or nerve agent must have resulted in plenty of sleepless nights though.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

I’m sure that the Germans and Soviets also had supplies but I suspect that either through their own personal experience of their effects (Hitler) and the lack of any credible defence for their own troops for the inevitable counter strike, that no one wanted to employ them first.

It wasn't only the troops who would have suffered. Air strategists before the war had contemplated the use of gas on civil populations as a way to quickly conclude a future war, and the British fully expected such a thing in 1940 could be unleashed against them. Those gasmasks you see British schoolchildren lugging around in old photographs weren't just for show.

And even later during the mid-war period, Churchill raised the issue of using gas against the cities of Germany in a mass extermination campaign. This was not done, but the Allies were prepared to take that step had Hitler initiated the use of gas or biological weapons.

Michael

[SgtMuhammed]

The Allies would have been remiss not to at least have the threat of a response in kind to any chemical or bio attack. Both sides pretty much knew the other's capabilities. Giving away the innitiative could have lead to dissaster.

[MikeyD]

Deja vu all over again.

Sounds like the first Gulf War. I believe a recent Brit study concluded that much of 'Gulf War Syndrome' was due to trace amounts of nerve gas released by the U.S. blowing up Iraqi ammo dumps. That conclusion automatically bumped Allied casualties for the first Gulf War from hundreds to hundreds of thousands.

[MPK]

I've always found it interesting

that Napalm is considered a Chemical

Weapon, and tends to be considered

as such when Treaties deciding what

is and isn't 'acceptable' are drawn

up...eg the Geneva Convention...

Ditto WP (white phosphorus)...

[MPK]

BTW, the bit I thought was 'horrible'

was not that the Good Guys had poison

gas but that the sailors (merchant seamen)

in the water copped it hard.

Gas wasn't used, not because it is less

humane than immolating people in firestorms

or irradiating them in vast numbers, but

because it has limited application...

I would expect the next generation of

war chemicals to be far more specific

and deadly...and more 'useable'.

[Radetzky]

a german scientist working for the ig farben discovered sarin as early as 1938, a nerve toxic gas. some of you might know it for being used by some japanese terrorists in the tokyo underground in 1995. the germans started to produce nerve gas (called "tabun" and "sarin")in the spring of '42 in considerably amounts and made all necessary preparations to use them against the allies. by the end of '44 the germans had about 12.000 tons of tabun ready in bombs and grenades. but they believed in the allies having comparable stocks of nerve gas (they didn't even know about it until they discovered the factories and arsenals) and so never used it - thank the lord for that.

anyone interested in the subject should take a look at "a higher form of killing" by robert harris / jeremy paxman (arrow books 2002)

[MPK]

Sarin began life as an insecticide...

The bug sprays of today that are

'anti-cholinesterase' in action

are for all intents and purposes

simply Sarin...diluted.

Next time you see cockroaches doing

the Dance Of Death after being sprayed,

realize you have just used a nerve

agent...but then we have the Moral

High Ground, don't we?

Those bugs were WARNED.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by MPK:

Those bugs were WARNED.

True. Every time I flush one down the toilet, I remind them that they were welcome to a long and prosperous life as long as they (a) never came inside my house, and ( never touched my sacred body.

Michael

[MPK]

"True. Every time I flush one down the toilet, I remind them that they were welcome to a long and prosperous life as long as they (a) never came inside my house, and ( never touched my sacred body."

Was this a VERBAL contract?

-You really want to nail it down

in this situation, especially if

drowning is your preferred method...

-I was careful to post a written

14 Day Notice To Quit on the fridge

before using the Sarinade

Cocktail...this makes it legal,

say my legal people.

-Some of them W.A insects are

large & audacious, and may require

rougher handling...

[Michael Emrys]

Show them no mercy. There are more of them than there are of us.

Michael

[JonS]

Yes, but Michael, there are more of you skittering around than I'm entirely comfortable with.

[MPK]

"Show them no mercy"

You need to be a little bit selective

with genocide...be careful not to harm

any spiders...what one spider knows,

they all know...they communicate, you

see, by using that World Wide Web thingy.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by JonS:

Yes, but Michael, there are more of you skittering around than I'm entirely comfortable with.

You should talk. Two in your brood and counting, right?

:eek:

Michael