Poles who Fought for Germany

[Alsatian]

Looking into the primary sources Rune cited for his new Battle Mountain scenario, I came across record of two German soldiers defecting to U.S. forces and claiming to be Polish.

That reminded me of another story in a Mauldin book about a GI captured and let go by two German soldiers who were actually Polish.

How many Poles fought for the Germans? I really have no idea.

I'm not having luck with googling this. I'm just ending up at old bulletin boards for different ethnic groups who are just throwing slurs and bad typing at each other, but no real revelations.

The only clue was speculation that soldiers from Silesia, being a border area between Germany and Poland would play whichever side of that ethnic fence that would benefit them most; i.e. Silesians would pretend to be German in October 1939, but then pretend to be Polish anytime after say 1944.

Any better explanation than that, or hard numbers?

[Kingfish]

Many of the static German divisions in the west had 1 or 2 Ost battalions, and these were a mix of ex-Polish and Russian POWs.

[JasonC]

Two different issues. As already said, late in the war the Germans incorporated "Ost" battalions in a number of their second line infantry divisions, to fill out their numbers. These served under German officers, while the personnel were Polish, white Russian, Ukrainian, etc. Some fought, many surrendered as soon as they had the chance. Before then they were used as labor battalions on field fortifications and the like, sometimes treated as little more than slaves. Some, on the other hand, worked for the Germans in return for decent treatment.

The second issue is the so-called Volksdeutsch, German speakers from territory outside Germany's prewar borders. Some were in territory annexed by Germany, and therefore became German citizens and fully subject to conscription etc. Others were recruited as foreign nationals. Some of these identified themselves as Germans, but quite a few did not.

German ideology regarded racial Germans (whatever that supposedly means) as Germans wherever they lived, and German speakers (national rather than racial Germans) as also Germans wherever they lived. But plenty of people had the strange old fashioned idea that their loyalty was actually owed to their country, not their race. And frequently acted on it, by deserting a cause that had destroyed their countries.

[The_Enigma]

speaking of ost battalions and russians ...

Was there a real differance between the Russians in the Ost Battalions on the western front and the 'Hiwi's' on the eastern front?

[Guest Mike]

I read somewhere that Ost Battlaion members surrendered at the rate of about 1000 per week - not an option for Hiwi's!

[ironbar]

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The only clue was speculation that soldiers from Silesia, being a border area between Germany and Poland would play whichever side of that ethnic fence that would benefit them most; i.e. Silesians would pretend to be German in October 1939, but then pretend to be Polish anytime after say 1944

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I think the ethnic lines were actually kind of blurry; while researching my grandfather who immigrated in 1898, we noticed that he reported his family name three times on the ships manifest, in a Polish spelling, a Lithuanian spelling and a German spelling. So either it was a matter of convenience which ethnicity you used, or of course he could have been on the lam.

[Dandelion]

I believe Ironbar is hitting the nail in terms of numbers.

Ethniticity as such is a very confusing and blurred concept. Prussian regions of Germany have always contained very large bilingual or trilingual groups, with a very heavy representation of slavic such. To call them Poles is dubious, they might just as well have been Ruthenians, Ukrainians etc, and in fact many of these have never lived within the borders of a predominantly slavic realm, but have always been Germans. Some again were jewish groups.

Names ending with "-ski" were and are so common in eastern Germany as to not at all provoke any immediate thoughts of Poland. People carrying them might be recently immigrated Poles, or people that have lived in Prussia for centuries, bilingual or not. The ending "-itz", stemming from slavic "-ic", is equally common.

Just having a glance at the rolls of the 12th SS Panzer "HJ", squad after squad present names such as Geruschka, Jaskulski, Kaschka, Menschik, Machow, Stiwitz, Jablonski, Bielsky et cetera, I cannot here see a single presented squad containing 100% names of germannic languague origin.

So, hundreds of thousands of people with origins in slavic speaking cultures, close or distant in history, with linguistic and cultural ties maintained or abandoned, fought and died as any other ordinary Germans in the ranks of quite ordinary units. As they had in all of Germanys and Prussias many wars. They were not considered or treated as Poles, wether or not they spoke slavic languages at home. Prussia was always multicultural.

The ethnic ideologies spread in the 30s and 40s might (will probably) have incensed any number of these, provoking them to redefine their identities and feeling Polish regardless of wether or not they had ever really lived in Poland or had their origins from within the borders of modern Poland, in a quite justified feeling of being rejected by their own nation, Germany.

So, in any given moment of the war, quite a few German ordinary divisions could have spawned men who defected to the allies in the sincere feeling of fighting for the wrong side.

In addition come the Silesians as mentioned, referring to slavic speaking such (the region was divided), some of whom had never defined themselves as Germans and were much in the same situation as the - Alsatians )

Cheers

Dandelion

[Dandelion]

... I realise I overlooked one aspect of your question there Alsatian - speaking strictly in terms of nationals, just short of a quarter million Polish nationals served in the various services of the German armed forces overall during the stretch of the war.

But here we must recall Jasons note above on "Volksdeutsche", the vast majority of these considered themselves, or were regarded by the Third Reich, as ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche).

That's an official figure. Of course a unknown number of unofficial HiWis will have to be added.

This just to give you a figure on nationals, but not really revealing much about concepts of ethniticity. Meaning these Polish nationals were hardly more likely to have identified themselves as Poles than many German nationals were.

Cheers

Dandelion

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by the_enigma:

speaking of ost battalions and russians ...

Was there a real differance between the Russians in the Ost Battalions on the western front and the 'Hiwi's' on the eastern front?

Well one real difference was that very few men in the Ost Bataillone were actually Russians, and quite a few of the Hiwis were.

Another difference was that Hiwis were not to have any combat duties (initially they werent allowed at all, then only in unarmed services), but of course they soon appeared in such functions as well. Though not in large formations, but embedded in German such.

Finally, the Hiwis got to fight the force they conceived as their enemy and usually displayed high levels of motiovation, whereas the Ost Bataillone were faced with forces who they could not bring themselves to regard as enemies, leading to frequent collapse of combat morale.

Just a few points, the subject is vast and very interesting actually.

Cheers

Dandelion

[JasonC]

Dandelion - "considered by Germany" and "considered themselves" are not remotely the same thing. That was indeed my central point. Germany's utterly imaginary categories in the matter did not correspond with the much more common sensical beliefs of half the population of eastern Europe.

If that is not direct enough, countries are real and have governments and armies and citizens. Nations are less weighty but still real, and consist of those who share a common language and with it ready access to cultural affinities - though to a wide variety of those, not one, in all cases. (They are also a leading source of treason). Races or "ethnicities" in any other sense are entirely imaginary.

[Dandelion]

Jason

Indeed, I separated that sentence to point out that only about ten percent of the Volksdeutsche that served are known to have been volounteers, thus presumably sharing ethnic concepts with the Third Reich (or motivated by other factors). The others were drafted and we'll never have any figures of their opinions. Quite a few will have been quite surprised to find themselves "German", particularly those that did not speak a word German and had never been in Germany, nor had any relation to or in it of any kind.

Though the Third Reich ideologists did not invent the concept of Volksdeutsche. Such ideas had been circulating since the early 19th century and will have had some following here and there. Expanding ideas of German ethniticity, it was a conscious effort to redefine people made by the Third Reich. Such efforts have both failed and succeeded before. Hungary failed miserably in magyarising croats, but the turks very successfully turkisised anatolia. Same people but new ethnicity, new language, new history. Given time, the Nazis would have probably succeeded in making people accept the concept of Volksdeutsche. Indeed, after the war we have seen many East European states picking up this concept and using it, such as the Czech Republic, Poland, Romania, Yugoslavia (while it lasted) and Hungary. And so in a way the Nazis scored some success.

Actually to me nations are as entirely imaginary as ethniticities. I find it impossible to define culture and language is too confusingly transforming to me to be used for definition. Indeed states, IMHO, while being actual organisations with actual assets and geographically defined, are mere manifestations of abstract ideas and agreements as well. No more or less real than companies, organised religion or ideology etc.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[JasonC]

Give sufficient time, Nazis would be dead. Thankfully.

Languages are entirely real and the basis of the concept of nations, as distinct from countries.

Abstract does not equal unreal. That's just bad philosophy. Try arguing your way out of a mathematical theorem rhetorically, if you are having trouble with this.

[painfbat]

This one fought for the Germans

http://ritterkreuz.heim.at/nkg/bialetzki.htm