Courtesy Fire

[Der Kuenstler]

Has anyone noticed when two enemy snipers meet up close in the woods, they don't actually kill each other? They engage in what I would call "courtesy fire" - you hear a shot from each every once in a while and they each duck and come back up, but neither is actually hurt or using up any ammo.

This is also seen when a sniper comes up on an enemy truck - if he's too close he won't actually fire on the truck, only a sound and the truck will move away. I've also heard this "courtesy fire" come from gun crews and FOs - just a sound and no damage is done.

Does anyone know what this behavior is supposed to model? The sound is like a rifle and a bolt being worked, not a pistol. Yet even pistol fire is monitored in HQs. Do these guys have hidden deringers in their boots that they didn't tell Battlefront about?

[Brille]

Hello Der Kuenstler,

the sound (bolt working) is a little bit weird but actually i think it is a Pistol. You can also hear this sound by Rocketlauncher- or Antitank-rifle-Squads.

They`ll use it automatically if an enemy gets too near to the position and they can´t effective hit him with their main gun.

Why it is not just modelled like it is by the HQ´s ? I can just speculate: I think to avoid directly fire by the unit with two weapons(the units, who have "invisible" Pistols are not for Attack, so they don´t need extra weapons).

For Example the sniper: If he had a "viewable" Pistol, like the HQ´s have, you could direktly fire with it on enemy infantry PLUS his sniper-rifle (16 firepower @ 40m by an German sniper then [if you add normal-carabine and Pistol firepower, surely more because off higher accuracy]). Indeed the "Sniper" (to model it in CM) must be a Sniper-Team: One to carry the Pistol (verry heavy ).

Mfg Brille

P.S.: Sorry about my bad english but i hope you get the core of it. ^^

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Der Kuenstler:

Does anyone know what this behavior is supposed to model?

It's the abstact representation of the unit using a self-defense fire arm (could be a pistol or rifle). This was implemented after we several discussions back in the CMBO days about units such as sharpshooters and heavy weapons teams not being able to defend themselves.

[Der Kuenstler]

Interesting that I've never observed them acyually do any damage other than make the other guy duck...

[Brille]

Well, one Pistol isn´t that effective but i´ve noticed one hit by a sniper of mine a time ago. An Infantry squad was on open ground, very close and running, so the chance was high.

But it is just a little self defence, don´t expect too much of it (especially in pines or woods).

[JasonC]

Right it is the self defense fire, which is modeled as a pistol, aka 5 fp at range 40 meters and 1 fp at range 100 meters. A sniper won't actually use the sniper rifle inside 100 meters range. It will avoid firing at all if not detected, considering stealth the right way to deal with a close enemy approach. They will only go to self defense fire if the enemy is within 100 meters and they know they are already spotted. Snipers are not action movie stars, they are long range stealth shooting specialists.

[Der Kuenstler]

interesting - well I did some more testing in the editor with a hidden Russian AT gun in woods firing at an 81mm german mortar in the open - the gun used HE until the crew abandoned the mortar. I then observed the gun crew using this "self-defense" fire about three times - they killed two mortar team members with it as they ran away so it is more than courtesy fire - can't call it that anymore...

[Corvidae]

I'm back from months of double shifts, 7 days a week.

snipers (and crews) do use small arms to defend themselves. And sometimes they do more than spook the enemy. I had a mortar with no ammo sucessfully cause casualtys using small arms.

[stoat]

I discovered this property of support weapons the hard way. In a PBEM scenario, my opponent snuck a pair of panzerschreks into my rear area to attack armor that was arriving as reinforcements without escorting infantry. I couldn't spare a rifle squad from the main battle, so I decided to send a couple of tank crews from knocked out Shermans to take them out, figuring they couldn't defend themselves. 7 tank crewmen against 4 Germans resulted in 3 American casualties and 1 German.

[junk2drive]

I had a PBEM where my opponent's sharpshooter walked up to mine. They exchanged shots turn after turn but eventually one of them died.

[John Kettler]

stoat,

Were you also accused of being gamey? If so, who was the cannibal? Sorry, couldn't resist, though the first question was actually serious! Some people are absolute death on using crews this way. OTOH, it was rear area action on your turf, which is hardly the same as using them offensively in the front line.

Regards,

John Kettler

[stoat]

stoat,

Were you also accused of being gamey? If so, who was the cannibal? Sorry, couldn't resist, though the first question was actually serious! Some people are absolute death on using crews this way. OTOH, it was rear area action on your turf, which is hardly the same as using them offensively in the front line.

Regards,

John Kettler

I tend not to play with those that are very concerned with such practices as attacking crews and unusual force purchases. That being said, I'm not the type that uses crews as scouts, or anything of the like. I was playing a regular opponent, a rather laid-back Englishman, and the action took place fairly deep in my rear area. No accusation of gameyness was made.

[Aco4bn187inf]

Sharpshooters will use their pistols even when they're unspotted, if the enemy is close enough. It once took me about three turns to spot a sharpshooter whose pistol fire was pinning a unit of mine in a forest. Like an invisible man with a pistol.

[Bannon DC]

Sharpshooters will use their pistols even when they're unspotted, if the enemy is close enough. It once took me about three turns to spot a sharpshooter whose pistol fire was pinning a unit of mine in a forest. Like an invisible man with a pistol.

Three turns... you're lucky. I've gone an entire game stumping the bushes and inspecting every corner of a couple of buildings looking for a damn pistol wielding sniper. Never found him. Damn elite bastard. He must have been hiding behind the china closet.

[dieseltaylor]

Sending tank crews after snipers, and anti-tank teams has a fine body of supporting evidence. Given the cost of crews you have to think carefully about using them.

[costard]

Was the leadership (Captains and such) truly thinking that way? I can't see US or Commonwealth leaders being particularly successful with that gambit. USSR, however, and Germany... Sven Hassel stuff?

I can see the point: in terms only of a game, however. And recon armed, a truly combative tank unit would be tough enough to do any job suited for it.