Biltong's Campaign Rules goes 'GOLD'!!

[Apache]

I just did a DL of the die programme. Works fine.

[Lane]

To Bartokomus,

Murry:

Hey dont feel like the Lone Ranger

I feel the same way about my intelligence Level

the Bottom". But I try to see it as challenge

to understand new things. Most of time things

I don't understand are there in the documentation.

and I just got to dig them out.

Hang in there. Most of time I just play a

QB or a Battle I have downloaded or with the game.

This BCR sounds like it would fun the make a campaign with a bunch of QB.

Regards

Lane Have a good day folks

[Apache]

LT Bull - I suspect one of team will answer your queries soon. I'm in a bit of a rush so don't have time at moment. I've also lost a little track of the major action rule. I wonder whether it is a glitch that has slipped throught the net? Perhaps the task force multipliers should not be applied to large arty/air (that said a skim re-read of the rules or notes doesn't say so.) It does seem a bit odd that arty has even a chance of getting whacked up that high. IIRC the absolute maximum you will EVER be able to spend on arty is 3400 and that is as an Axis Assaulter facing a 5000 point defending force and that should never happen at this scale.

Strikes me that the kind of Force you should be ending up with here is around the 2,600 mark which with the 1.7 modifier gives 2,000 (or 1500 if you want to skip the 59 you are over the 1500.) On a 1500 Axis Assault CMBB would normally allow a max spend of 387 on arty (that said I know we set it to unrestricted).

[ February 11, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Lane:

To Biltong,

or whoever

This all sounds good

I known this sounds dumb. but what are Parameter's

of the Rule set? and Random Die numbers?

were do you set all this up.? QB? or using the

Editor? I have made QB and played battles that I

have downloaded.

thank's for any basic info.

Regards

Lane

Hi Lane – Download the Rules and the Players Guide – see the 1st post in this thread for the download addresses. The player Guide will walk you through everything.

Enjoy

[SuperSulo]

Thanks for trying it out, Apache. You don't happen to have Borland C++ Builder or something similar installed, do you? I was thinking maybe it's using some dll that's included in a developer suite or something.

BTW, if you want, I can host your Bn rules too.

[SuperSulo]

Just checked the stats, 100 downloads since I added the counter.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Sublime:

Biltong,

very cool to see you have a die program, solves one of my problems =D

Unfortunately the file your site links to doesnt work once downloaded..?

Hi Sublime,

Here’s another one:

Irony

But I’ve already provided a whole list of random numbers in a sheet that comes with the rules. See the tab “Random Die Numbers” at the bottom of the Rules… Print it then you don’t have to tab back and forth to the online die generator. There’s 1600 numbers – should be enough for a whole campaign. I just use a felt pen and mark off the numbers as I use them. Far easier me thinks

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

Biltong,

1) You can mail me the Kiev's for testing (I like garlic vesion )

2) Just a thought for the 42. How about rolling for arty support request? Perhaps roll and get:

1-2: Request denied

2-5: 1 Battery (1 x FO)

6-7: 2 Battery (2 x FO)

8-9: Battalion level (3 x FO)

10: Regiment(2 x 105 FO + perhaps 1 x 150 etc)

Check your inbox for Kiev (Chili Pepper – Extra Strong)… Curious to hear what you find.

As for the FO suggestion: Looks good at 1st glace, but…

It removes the randomness provided by the QB. (Not that there’s much of it when it comes to FO’s).

I prefer that the QB dictates, in most cases, what the player buys – forcing him to play a variety of units and not just keep on choosing his own pet units. This is one of the benefits of BCR: You get to learn the pro’s and con’s of all the units in CMBB…

Rarity tends to cut down the choices somewhat, but the Rules cater for that as well: Note 12: “For both the Task Force and Attached Units stick to units that are less than 40% Rare - a die roll of 9 or 10 gives you free reign to buy those rare beauties….”

Also: I prefer to keep the same style for all the Task Force categories and avoid hard-coding the units… this allows CMBB to control the availability/rarity of the units/FO’s, as time advances, via the QB.

Wreck’s old rules used to do this (hard-coding) and the restriction bugged me: always having just the same few choices… Not such a big problem when it comes to FO’s, but still an unnatural/unhistorical restriction.

If I had to hard-code and keep it historically correct – I would have to check what is available for each month/sector and hard-code it in – a lot of work (and modifiers/rules?) already done by BFC. The QB route is the only way of using BFC’s research and coding without reinventing the wheel.

In any case: The rules allow a player to buy what you suggest when they are lucky enough to get Large Arty

You know most of this already – Just restating the case for all the new guys

[Apache]

Hi Super S, thanks for the offer, I'll send you the latest (version 1.93) it has a few very minor adjustments. Just tinkering with the balance in terms of chances of getting arnour etc. It would certainly save me a bit of time (a lot in the last 24 hours!). In the mail. BTW, I think the hit and download counters are a good idea. They indicate the level of interest which can only be good for the future development of the rules. If it were only us that were interested we may as well just mail each other. Clearly that is not the case. Maybe BFC will be able to look at some kind of add-on or incorporation for the new game.

Biltong, no problem re the arty. Just something I'm toying with for the battalion variant. In fairness I think Axis use of arty was pretty 'boring' in therms of gameplay. A number of the recent threads discuss what they had, or more often than not, didn't have. Frequently it was zilch and when they had it often it was battalion level support of 105s. This is where historical accuracy may stifle things a bit. That said, I like it Now, have you dug out those tank registration numbers for me The only thing a small group of us who PBEM regularly have found is that the 'access to arty denied' option should feature more often perhaps (3-4 time out of 10) which forces players to get more adept at choosing and using direct fire on-map arty support (75mm IGs etc.). I have played a number of people who find that any lack of FO directed arty severely hampers their play.

JasonC did some really good 'artillery'guidance notes which I am incorporating into my battalion level variant. I'll send it to you once finalised. They are not so much rules regarding buying but advice covering using. Such a 'Guidance Notes' scetion may useful, again once finished, cut and paste mine if you like.

[ February 11, 2003, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Lt Bull:

...

I definitely have MUCH more than 500 points of Infantry/Support and MUCH less than 3500 points of arty.

So here I have 2 questions:

1) This is a dauntingly huge number of units to play with. Are Task Forces of this size expected in BCR or have I done something wrong somewhere?

You didn't do anything wrong. You were just very lucky!! By pure fluke you rolled up a Large Battle x 5 ( 1 out of 10 odds) for your first battle - A task force of this size will give your Battle Group a welcome break since they will lead the way. Once the enemy has been routed, bring up the Battle Group and kill the fleeing soldiers to get some experience and favor

This won't happen often. The reason for Large Battles: Without the large battle option, most BCR battles will be around 1250, which can become repetative.

2) I can't see the relevance of rolling for each Task Force unit type category in #29-#35 when earlier on (#18-#25) it was determined what the Task Force Parameters were (Force Mix, Division Type etc) for the QB Generator to automatically pick the Task Force units.

Using #18-#25 already specifies the parameters that determines the kind of force mix you can expect the QB Generator to select. Given my above situation, how is rolling for #29-#35 relevant when it is entire independant of whatever QB Generator parameters were rolled for in #18-#25?

#29-35 just gives you the amount of points you are allowed to spend on your Task Force Categories, while #18-25 determines what 'type' of task force you will get... So it's not "independant", but I see what you are getting at:

Why not just use #18-25 and generate the task force: Problem is: Most of the time your task force will be far too large. Far too easy a game.

You need to roll up the purchase points for the categories to keep the Task Force size in check (your situation being an extreme exception

and most important to allow the modifiers in Note 7 to take effect: Player Exp; Battle Type & Date.

... I also am somewhat confused by the Force Size used when you first auto select the Task Force using the QB Generator as opposed to the Force Size specified when actually manually selecting your units in the real QB. I would expect these values to be different. :confused:

...

Lt Bull

Yes, one would expect that, but:

As you found - the QB tends to repeat the same units over and over. So I'm 'nice' and give the Auto more Purchase points so that it will (hopefully) generate a wider variety of units that you can choose from.

The main purpose of the Auto QB is to tell you what to buy and to prevent you from buying the same 'pet' units over and over if left to yourself.

Remember: You are still restricted by the points you rolled up per category so you can't go to town and buy everything, but at least the QB decided what you can buy. See my post to Apache re the same topic a bit higher up. Basically it's the 'teaching' function of BCR - to force you to buy units which you would not buy if left to yourself...play with them & getting to know them, and still be historically correct in terms of availability and rarity.

Hope this helps

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Lane:

To Bartokomus,

Murry:

Hey dont feel like the Lone Ranger

I feel the same way about my intelligence Level...

Guys - I know these rules can be daunting. They started of quite simply, but once we've catered for all the exceptions they turned into a bit of an opera I had to say no-thank you a hundred times to The BCR Team and players who wanted to add on MORE

My best advice: Don't read all of the rules in one sitting - it will just scare you. USE THE PLAYER GUIDE AND ROLL UP THE PARAMETERS ONE BY ONE... Once you have played a battle or 2 it will all fall into place. Then rolling up becomes a breeze and actually part of the FUN... finding out what I'm going to get is one of my favourite parts of BCR.

[SuperSulo]

I've added Apache's Bn Version on my site, v1.93.

And Biltong, the reason to use my super groovy die simulator is that a) you don't have to be online to use it. gives a more uhm pleasant gaming feel than just ticking a box on a spreadsheet. c) if everybody is using that same sheet, doesn't that mean you are all playing the same battles?

I would use a real, physical, D10 if I had one, but I don't, so I use the next best thing, my die simulator. I hope that clears it up.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by j0ker:

...it would seem to me, as a web developer, that Biltong's hard work would transfer especially well to an online form that could be able to generate the random numbers, crunch the different attributes, etc, and spit out a summary page which the player would then be able to apply to the next battle ... Or is this currently being produced?

-j0ker

Hi Joker - from time to time guys started out doing various programs that would automate the Rules... of all of these only one guy managed to succeed

See Max's Auto Parameters at the download sites (1st post in this thread). He's got an Excel version where you select some options, press a key and hey Presto!! All done for you.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

LT Bull - I suspect one of team will answer your queries soon. I'm in a bit of a rush so don't have time at moment. I've also lost a little track of the major action rule. I wonder whether it is a glitch that has slipped throught the net? Perhaps the task force multipliers should not be applied to large arty/air (that said a skim re-read of the rules or notes doesn't say so.) It does seem a bit odd that arty has even a chance of getting whacked up that high. IIRC the absolute maximum you will EVER be able to spend on arty is 3400 and that is as an Axis Assaulter facing a 5000 point defending force and that should never happen at this scale.

Strikes me that the kind of Force you should be ending up with here is around the 2,600 mark which with the 1.7 modifier gives 2,000 (or 1500 if you want to skip the 59 you are over the 1500.) On a 1500 Axis Assault CMBB would normally allow a max spend of 387 on arty (that said I know we set it to unrestricted).

Ah yes - something I forgot to mention: Even with 'unrestricted' your points for Arty will still be restricted by CMBB: 3010 for an Axis Assault IIRC... Just see it as a once in a life time gift!! Your odds of getting Large Arty points combined with a 5 x Large Battle must be 100 to 1?

Obviously you are the spearhead of a mayor Divisional action... Sit back and enjoy the barrage and send in your troops to count the dead..

The June to Sept/Oct 41 was a lot of fun for the Axis... later it changed a bit...

Enjoy the ride - while it lasts

In fact I'm jealous!! Wish I would get a combo like that. What did you buy and what happened? - do tell!!

[ February 11, 2003, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

... Maybe BFC will be able to look at some kind of add-on or incorporation for the new game....

... The only thing a small group of us who PBEM regularly have found is that the 'access to arty denied' option should feature more often perhaps (3-4 time out of 10) which forces players to get more adept at choosing and using direct fire on-map arty support (75mm IGs etc.). I have played a number of people who find that any lack of FO directed arty severely hampers their play....

Sadist!!

The Task Force Modifiers (Note 7) already does this and more: Last weeks of December you only have a 50% chance of getting arty - and then only small ones at that

Throw a ten and you only get 95 points :eek:

[Biltong]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

I've added Apache's Bn Version on my site, v1.93.

And Biltong, the reason to use my super groovy die simulator is that a) you don't have to be online to use it. gives a more uhm pleasant gaming feel than just ticking a box on a spreadsheet.

Bloody Geek - what's wrong with paper ?? If we left it to you the bloody Amazon jungle will grow right back :mad:

c) if everybody is using that same sheet, doesn't that mean you are all playing the same battles?

Exactly - 100+ guys going Ooh - AAh and F%$## all at the same time all over the world!! That's what rules are for...!

[JigVictor07]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

It doesn't work? What happens? It must be some library that's missing. I'll see if I can fix it. It's a bit difficult though, since it works fine on my PC.

For me it says that brlnd.dll or something like that is missing (I'm at work now and can't chech it).

[Sublime]

Biltong Im sorry for no reply recently, I got kinda caught up in playing C&C generals and waiting for my CMBB in the mail (puts on flame armor)

Anyways would you mind mailing me tomorrow and Ill reply with some questions after I review player guide again? I need to refresh my mind but i know i have a few questions...? please oh mighty one?

Sublime

[Lt Bull]

Biltong,

I have yet to enter any combat at this stage. I have made all my prebattle rolls and I am making sure I am following the rules correctly before committing to the actual battle.

Originally posted by Biltong:

You didn't do anything wrong. You were just very lucky!! By pure fluke you rolled up a Large Battle x 5 ( 1 out of 10 odds) for your first battle ....... This won't happen often.

I realise that my initial battle gave me extreme (rare) parameters with the largest possible Force Size. Perhaps this huge Force Size has made things more confusing for me. Regardless, 5 Infantry Battalions (more than 23 Companies) is simply a HUGE amount of units to deal with and would place a HUGE strain on most peoples computer. I think most people would feel satisfied they have completed a HUGE battle if they had just commanded perhaps just 2-3 Battalions. Perhaps the rules can be modified to prevent players from having to deal with such large OOBs even in extreme cases.

Originally posted by Biltong:

The reason for Large Battles: Without the large battle option, most BCR battles will be around 1250, which can become repetitive.

I understand the need for variation, but I think allowing the largest games to be so big is a bit too extreme. I think that the current system which determines the Force Mix gives us enough variation in "quality". I don't think the extreme case of 5 infantry battalions is further required to satisfy the need for variation in Task Force "quantity".

Originally posted by Biltong:

#29-35 just gives you the amount of points you are allowed to spend on your Task Force Categories, while #18-25 determines what 'type' of task force you will get...So it's not "independent", but I see what you are getting at:

Why not just use #18-25 and generate the task force: Problem is: Most of the time your task force will be far too large. Far too easy a game. You need to roll up the purchase points for the categories to keep the Task Force size in check (your situation being an extreme exception and most important to allow the modifiers in Note 7 to take effect: Player Exp; Battle Type & Date.

Thanks for your explanations here and elsewhere but I am still need clarification of the basic concept and idea behind the Task Force selection process. I will try to explain how I see it and where I don't understand so please correct me and fill in the gaps as required.

1) The Task Force units are meant to represent additional combat units provided to help the Battle Group just for that one battle. The process of selection is random and designed to give the player exposure to a wide range of units not only in quality/type, but in quantity.

2) The process of selection of a Task Force is for a large part, random. BCR utilises CMBB's own inbuilt "auto unit selector" function for QBs to "randomly" select units for a Task Force. The Parameters #18-#25 basically determine the main composition of the Task Force (quality/type), whereas Parameter #36 (Force Size) determines the size.

3) Because CMBB's QB generator can not combine "auto select" and "human select" for the same side, the process of creating a QB type battle that includes both a) the players own (non random) Battle Group units and the randomly selected Task Force units, the process is done in two parts:

i) The first part involves getting the QB generator to "auto select" the Task Force based on #18-#25 and #36 and having the player manually notes down what units were selected by the random "auto-select". This might be the most tedious part of the process especially if the Force Size rolled for is extreme (ie 5000 points).

and

ii) The second part involves starting up the QB generator again but this time the player has full manual control of the units selected for his side (the enemy force is "auto selected" based on parameters #9-#17). The player must first pick his core Battle Group units. He must then manually pick his Task Force units based on a) what units were picked earlier by the "auto select" and the "additional" Task Force purchase points for each unit category.

OK...here is where I am confused. If I take my example, I have had the Task Force selected by the "auto select" QB generator, in my case 5000 points worth of various infantry battalions/companies. I note down exactly what Task Force units were selected. When I go to manually select units for the real battle, I need to select both my predetermined Battle Group units (653 points worth) and the Task Force units (5000 points worth) that were manually recorded after being auto-selected earlier. But I will need 5653 purchase points to do this. 653 points worth of units need to miss out. Which ones?

On top of this, there are the "additional" points rolled up for each Task Force unit category in #29-#35. These "additional" points totalled 4065 alone with 3500 just for arty. What is the rule for handling this situation? What can/can't I pick? Theoretically are the values rolled for in #29-#35 meant to give the player the option to purchase units in each particular category to the value of those points ON TOP OF what was earlier selected by the QB auto-select, if at all possible? :confused:

As I have more units than points, is there some sort of step by step process for selecting your units? I would say that the most important units to select first are those belonging to your own Battle Group. In my case, after selecting the Battle Group, only 4347 points remain to pick a Task Force with. Why was the Task Force originally auto-selected using the same number of points as what is used in the real battle? It is obvious that there will then be not enough points in the real battle to purchase both the Battle Group and the Task Force. Some units will always end up having to miss out. :confused:

Gee, that all took a fair bit if explaining , but I do want to be sure of what to do :0.

Lt Bull

[Apache]

Lt Bull - if I read the problem correctly the answer is that the first auto QB is meant to provide you with a 'shopping list' from which you will select your task force up to the value you rolled up. You don't get to take the lot. So, if you rolled up at total of 5000 points and that modified to a point setting of 5000 (5000 divided by 1.5 as a modifier) you'd run your QB and it will generate a load of task force units that you note down. BUT, in this case you HAVE to buy the 3,500 worth of arty that you rolled so you'd only have 1500 points for other thinks in any event. Hopefully I'm on the right track with what your asking.

What you roll up dictates the points you must spend and on what.

The First QB merely gives you a list of units to choose from in those categories. You don't get the lot IIRC. Hope this helps (and hope I'm right)

[Grey Fox]

Just a thanks to you and Apache! Haven't dove in

yet but am looking forward to it.

[j0ker]

Got through my 2nd battle - an Immediate Assault - to a draw late last night... I figure I'll just complete the Battle Group and Favor paperwork, maybe do some end-of-battle random rolls: I roll ANOTHER 10 for ANOTHER Immediate Assault. F%$##. This was the last time I use a randomly-generated map, as well. What a bunch of nonsense. I'm switching over to some decent maps.

Clarification needed: so one of my core platoons got nailed by what looked like rockets and lost a bunch of troops, enough for me to have to move some others and deplete a squad - in the next battle, I'm to take this corresponding squad and move them off the map in Turn 1, is that correct? I don't get to replenish until I can achieve Attachments that equate to the number of troops to replenish (10)? Is this correct?

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Sublime:

Biltong Im sorry for no reply recently, I got kinda caught up in playing C&C generals and waiting for my CMBB in the mail (puts on flame armor)

Anyways would you mind mailing me tomorrow and Ill reply with some questions after I review player guide again? I need to refresh my mind but i know i have a few questions...? please oh mighty one?

Sublime

Hiya S,

You lost me - what must I send?

If it's the rules (including the Random Die Numbers) - you can download it from the sites listed in the 1st Post of this thread.

BTW - guys. This is standard: I always give the download site links in the 1st post of the current thread - if you want to check for new map pack or whatever.

[JigVictor07]

I've read the instructions and the posts here many times and I still don't get it all...

I may be confused with the same things as Lt Bull, but perhaps this is a different thing.

I rolled the die and got all the parameters down for the first battle. The force size ended up being 2000 points (see lower). Battle type ME. Armor/German/Infantry.

Inf Co & Armor: 653

Attached units: none

Infantry/Support: 225

Vehicle: 200

Armor: 150

Arty: 550

Purchase point total: 1778

Provisional force size: 1778 (rounded up to 2000)

I then run a 2000 point QB with the parameters and get the unit types for the Task Force.

Now, I'm going to set up the real battle. I have 550 points for (large) arty, but the maximum that CMBB allows for 2000 point QB ME is 350! Also, what I got in the first QB (to determine the Task Force units) was one 81 mm mortar spotter.

What do I do when I set up the real battle? Do I purchase only one 81 mm mortar spotter and use the rest of the points for what ever I want in that category or do I only purchase more of those same spotters?

What about the 350 point limit mentioned above? Will I just lose the remaining 200 points? What's the point of getting a lot of points for arty (550 in this case) if you can't use them all?

Am I missing something obvious here? :confused:

[ February 12, 2003, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: JigVictor07 ]

[SuperSulo]

I added another version of my die program, this time it shouldn't need any external libraries... It also got a lot bigger, 90 kB. I found another setting that didn't include "run time packages" (whatever that is), but then the small program became over 400 kB!

Can someone who tried the previous version and didn't get it to work try the new one and tell me if it works. If it doesn't I'll add that 400 kB monster...