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Von Schwendeman

Verkne-Kumskiy Topo Maps

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Help, I am trying to make a scenario of Gen. Raus's Revolving Tank Battle fought in and around the town of Verkhna-Kumskiy on 13 Dec. 42. Does anyone have or know where I can find topo maps of this area? Coordinates are N 48"05' E 43"26'. The map on page 148 of Panzer's on the Eastern Front by Tsouras indicates the 11th Panzer Regt involved in the battle had 160 Pz-IV's, all long barrel. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Von Schwendeman

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There used to be a set of soviet period maps of southern russia at one of the american universities in california that you could access on-line. The scale was a bit larger than what one would normally look for, but they were so detailed that it didn't really matter.

They were also in Russian and contained deliberate mistakes. But apart from that they were almost as good as a French hiking map. I'm sure that Andreas or Kingfish can point you in the right direction.

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According to H. Ritgen, the panzer composition was actually:

-24 PIV 75 Lang

-75 PIII 50 mm L/60

-30 PIII 75 mm L/24

I have a 1/100 000 map of the area. :)

[ January 02, 2008, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Tartari ]

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Not enough detail.

Here's a site with Cold War-era military maps, Soviet General Staff that is, of the entire Volgograd province, and parts of surrounding regions.

Get Yer Stalingrad Topo Maps Here

However, the province is quite large, and the maps are listed by map sheet name. There are 78 maps. Unless you know the map sheet name the village Verkhnekumskiy (spelled w/o a hyphen these days) is in, then tough luck.

Please give me more details on what other villages and towns are in the area. Best would be a reasonably detailed map showing where the village is in relation to Volgograd and the towns around it.

The payoff will be a 1:100000 military topographic map, circa 1980 - 1990, of the area you are interested in.

Originally posted by Von Schwendeman:

Verkhne-Kumskiy is about 65 miles south west of Volgograd (Stalingrad). I hope that is eneough information, let me know if you need more. Thanks, VS.

[ January 02, 2008, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Bigduke6 ]

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Yeah, I bet they're the same thing. Tatari, if you could post just the map name so I could read it (right now resolution is too low, and rightfully so) I could post the link to the site with the map. Or alternatively you can read Russian you could go to the site I just posted, and match the map that way.

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Tartari, I think you got the right location. The town just to the west of the small lake looks like VerkhneKumskiy. However, the resolution is too low. Can you give me a link were I might find the same map in higher resolution? Ritgen says only 24 PzIV longs. I can understand how Col. Hunersdorff and Maj. Dr. Baeke defeated nearly 400 Russian tanks with 160 Pz IV longs, but with the force mix sited by Ritgen it is going to be very difficult to recreate the historic outcome. Thanks for your help.

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Of course Bigduke (I unfortunately don't read russian):

M38 135

M38 136

Von Schwendemann, there's a worth reading on this battle: "...bis Stalingrad 48 Kilometer" by H. Scheibert.

I can zoom the map if you like and send it to you, the link to the map is dead.

[ January 02, 2008, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Tartari ]

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Originally posted by Philippe:

There used to be a set of soviet period maps of southern russia at one of the american universities in california that you could access on-line. The scale was a bit larger than what one would normally look for, but they were so detailed that it didn't really matter.

They were also in Russian and contained deliberate mistakes. But apart from that they were almost as good as a French hiking map. I'm sure that Andreas or Kingfish can point you in the right direction.

Could it be this one?

Ukraine 1:100,000 Topographic Maps

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Thanks for the link Big Duke, I found the map, it was 38- 135, # 71 on the list. It took a while, the pain of dial up modems. Tartari, the reading you referenced by Scheibert, is it in a book or is it an article? Is it in English? Can I get it off the web? Thanks again for every one's help, Von Schwendeman

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Von Schwendemann,

Way to go! I wasn't about to open every one of those maps to look for a specific village. You however have displayed the dedication of a proper CM designer.

Now as a personal favor, may I politely ask you to consult an unbiased, or failing that Soviet source to verify the German claims about the Verkhne-Kumskiy engagement?

Unconfirmed German panzer ace claims are not always the most reliable raw material for reconstructing an East Front fight, in my view.

For others interested, on the web site I posted the Verkhnekumskiy sheet is entitled "Shebalino", and listed under number 71. The map used photographs from 1986, and was published in 1991. Pretty durn open terrain too.

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Originally posted by Von Schwendeman:

... Tartari, the reading you referenced by Scheibert, is it in a book or is it an article? Is it in English? Can I get it off the web? Thanks again for every one's help, Von Schwendeman

It is a book sadly only in German language.

Bis Stalingrad 48 km, by Horst Scheibert

[ January 03, 2008, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: Tartari ]

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Did someone already read this one?

THE BATTLE FOR STALINGRAD OPERATION WINTER STORM, The Relief Operation of the LVII Panzer Corps , by Hans Wijers

[ January 07, 2008, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: Tartari ]

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Originally posted by Von Schwendeman:

Thanks for the link Big Duke, I found the map, it was 38- 135, # 71 on the list. It took a while, the pain of dial up modems. Tartari, the reading you referenced by Scheibert, is it in a book or is it an article? Is it in English? Can I get it off the web? Thanks again for every one's help, Von Schwendeman

Raus, although a good read, is pretty much flawed as a reference. He is inaccuarte in every way I'm afraid.

As an example of his 'inaccuracy' his account of the Cannae of Pochlebin missies out the fact that although a 'win' for the Germans a compnay from Pz Grenadier Regt 114, and it's attached AT platoon were overrun and wiped out. 11th panzer Regiments 8th Company lost a load of tanks when it ran into a Soviet PAK front and hidden T34s.

The losses for the Soviets, whilst considerable were not of the magnitude that Raus talks about -compare his accoutn of Soviet losses with 6th panzer's AAR (hardly unbiased) which talks about 10 Soviet tanks KO'd ( not a brigade destroyed), 14 guns captured, and around a total of about 2000 prisoners (mind this is open steppe there ain't many places for these guys to run, although a load did break out on horseback during the fight), not a corps destroyed. Hardly a 'Cannae'!

Cheers fur noo

George

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Originally posted by Tartari:

Did someone already read this one?

THE BATTLE FOR STALINGRAD OPERATION WINTER STORM, The Relief Operation of the LVII Panzer Corps , by Hans Wijers

Winter Storm, by Hans Wijers

I did. And I own it. Quite a good read, interesting eye witness accounts, some interesting copies of original documents, but on the whole not very, very good. I prefer Scheiberts book.

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Originally posted by Von Schwendeman:

George MC, I would appreciate any information you have on this battle. Send me an email if you don't want to post it here. Thanks, VS

I think George went off for some ice climbing in Norway (for a week or two?), so you might have to wait a bit on a response...

Ken

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Thanks Ken, He is the master at these kind of monster scenarios so I will wait on his advice. I just wish bigger maps were possible in CMBB, I can live with slowing down the processor but it is hard to fit a 10K X 10K fight into 3K X 3K.

Have fun, VS

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Originally posted by Von Schwendeman:

I figured out how they did it, the map is an operation map not a scenario map.

Yeah... I made a 4k X 6k map for a Static Op, (where the where the whole map is displayed for each battle, just roughed in, with lots of Steppe, mind you), to see what would happen, playing Hot-Seat/play-test, and I locked up my computer after about ten-turns...

Long lines-of-sight and craters really slow down my old computer.

For what it's worth,

Ken

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