Mines

[swampy11]

When setting up a mine field around a parameter, I have noticed that the attacking enemy just walks right through it with no perceivable damage. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks

`swamp

[Other Means]

There's a certain percentage that the tank will get caught, I think 50%. Therefore; don't rely on them.

In my experiance it's futile to try to build a perimiter per se.

Place a couple here and a couple there on the most likely overwatch places.

If you have a strict perimeter your oppo knows where they will be, usually in a forward line, and can pick a route through.

If you use the predicitive overwatch method he needs to scout everywhere his tanks are going to be.

[stoat]

Originally posted by swampy11:

When setting up a mine field around a parameter, I have noticed that the attacking enemy just walks right through it with no perceivable damage. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks

`swamp

You're burying the mines too deep.

[Mejsel]

At a third of the cost for AT-mines there are Daisy-Chain AT mines. I guess these are makeshift stuff and/or hasily deployed. Anyone care to fill in some detalis? I have not been able to find any good descriptions on internet..

[Other Means]

Originally posted by Mejsel:

At a third of the cost for AT-mines there are Daisy-Chain AT mines. I guess these are makeshift stuff and/or hasily deployed. Anyone care to fill in some detalis? I have not been able to find any good descriptions on internet..

They're described in the manual. They aren't dug in and so can be seen and avoided.

[tooz]

"When setting up a mine field around a parameter, I have noticed that the attacking enemy just walks right through it with no perceivable damage. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks `swamp"

The main problem is that you are NOT the AI. From my experiences it is rare that I can get through an AI mine field without heavy loss. Even while leading with Engineers, these tanks--slowly following the engineers--stumble upon mine after mine. So, what's up with the engineers? How come they are not searching the areas in which they walk? Then again, we do not have that order option in the menu.

When it comes to clearing mines, I refer back to the manual where you are instructed to bring the engineers as close as possible to the mines and wait. It's the waiting that bugs me. One game it took six turns for the engineers to finally clear an AT mine in the middle of the unpaved road.

One last question: how come artillery does NOT seem to affect minefields at all? While playtesting a proposed scenario I tried hammering one small area of a minefield belt with FIVE ROCKET OBAs. It didn't seem to make one bit of difference to the mines and of course errant rockets landed amongst my forces. I then tried sending my vehicles slowly around the numerous craters in a line, hoping that this area was cleared. Nope-it wasn't. So, how does one get through an AI minefield (like swampy, sometimes I can squeeze through a human player minefield without too much damage)?

Whether or not AI minefields are truly more difficult to penetrate is NOT a question for me. If others have not experienced this, then good for you. Personally, I shy away from any AI game where the AI has a large amount of mines.

[Aco4bn187inf]

Engineers, like any kind of infantry, have no ability in the game to detect buried (non-daisychain) mines. All engineers can do is eliminate ones that have been discovered by being stepped on or driven over already.

[JasonC]

tooz, you are being silly. All minefields have the same chance of not going off, which is about 50% for AT mines for one vehicle passing through. You don't find the ones that don't hit something, is all. Incidentally, AT mines always immobilize or KO on a hit, split about 50-50 between the two. They are definitely not automatic hit, automatic kill items.

Once they have gone off, you can clear them with pioneers with DCs. The procedure is to get within 20m with a full squad and wait. Do not step into the tile itself. The delays you have experienced probably come from other units being too close. The pioneers will not throw their demo charges to clear the field, unless your own guys are clear. Keep everybody else 20m or more away from the field. If any vehicle is immobilized within the field, be sure to button it.

Arty or other fire will not clear them. There are lots, and they are buried. (And it takes ~500 lbs of force to trip the detonator of an AT mine). The engineers are not just setting off a random explosion. In reality they are using linear charges to blow definite lanes through the field and marking those lanes so people know where to drive or step.

The best procedure when dealing with AT mines is to move in single file behind a single piece of light armor, with the rest having their waypoint limited to the spot it has already reached safely, the previous minute. There should be an equal time gap between the second and third vehicles. After that you can afford to stay more bunched if you want to.

If either of the lead vehicles hits a mine, bring up pioneers to make a gap, holding beyond the hit location in the meantime and overwatching with the vehicles to protect the pioneers. Resume column movement once the field is clear. You will often lose one vehicle M-killed or KOed, and the delay can easily be 5 minutes even with pioneers nearby. But you need not lose multiple tanks to them, nor get stopped entirely.

[John_d]

Is it just me or do daisy chain mines often prove to be more useful than straight AT mines precisely b/c the enemy can see them? Most of the time people try to drive around them, which allows you to use them for defensive parameters or to channel the enemy into a particular route. Nobody in their right mind will risk a 50% chance of losing a tank by driving through a clearly visible minefield

[SpitfireXI]

Or put hidden AT mines next to the daisy chains!

[lczaplys]

I seem to remember playing games where the pioneers would spot mines before I brought armour up.

Lately, however, they don't seem to be discovering the mines; do engineers have the ability to discover mines?

[JasonC]

No. They seen daisy chains, anybody does, close or not. Any infantry can find AP mines the hard way. Sometimes you will see the AT minefield icon the same turn a vehicle triggers a mine, a bit before the time in the movie the vehicle hits it. But they do not discover hidden minefields nobody has triggered. Impressions created by daisy chains are the leading cause of confusion about this.

[JasonC]

John-D - I don't find DC minefields useful against humans, because they are too easily removed by pioneers. Yes people often drive around them, but they are small and removable, and smart players will treat a removed DC as a route through your (unseen) barriers. Roadblocks are a better obstacle, if you want a permanent barrier e.g. for a single road in woods. They are expensive, but if you have too many routes to cover obstacles probably won't get it done anyway.

[juan_gigante]

Jason, the manual says that it is possible to reduce the effectiveness of minefields with artillery. Unfortunately, I cannot quote the exact page number, but it is mentioned that if you send down a lot of arty, the minefield might clear. But regardless, the minefield image will remain, so you won't know whether it is safe until you drive through.

[Xavier_1986]

Removal schmemoval. I say it's a waste of time - just send in the infantry to clear them the old fashioned way. :cool:

[Xavier_1986]

Originally posted by juan_gigante:

Jason, the manual says that it is possible to reduce the effectiveness of minefields with artillery. Unfortunately, I cannot quote the exact page number, but it is mentioned that if you send down a lot of arty, the minefield might clear. But regardless, the minefield image will remain, so you won't know whether it is safe until you drive through.

I've never seen artillery clear a minefield either actually. But then neither side in any of my games have ever really had an opportunity to try that. There's always so many more interesting targets for artillery.

[John_d]

I'm with Xavier here, I never really bother to clear minefields. Normally I don't have time or my engineers come under fire. Just force your troops through and accept that a few of them won't come out with a full quota of limbs

[Dook]

Direct HE fire will render a minefield safe to cross, although as juan g notes, the minefield marker will not disappear, so you don't know exactly when this occurs.

In a recent PBEM, I had an opponent's massive armored force completely bottled up because I put mines at a key chokepoint and he forgot to buy engineers. He spent 4 or 5 turns shooting at the minefield with HE from at least 4 or 5 different AFVs and then successfully crossed. I don't know when the minefield became inoperable.

Also, you sometimes might see an AP minefield without any of your troops setting it off if you have routed the enemy's troops and they retreat through the minefield.

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by stoat:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by swampy11:

When setting up a mine field around a parameter, I have noticed that the attacking enemy just walks right through it with no perceivable damage. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks

`swamp

You're burying the mines too deep. </font>

[Joachim]

My record with a mine field (1 tile) is 3 tanks killed or immo'd. Mines on dirt road, damp ground, lots of AI tanks.

The best indirect score for an AT mine field were 1 T34 and lots of grunts. T34 gets immo'd. Infantry with engineers arrive. Engineers clear mine field. T34 goes boom. Lots of grunts go down. The single tile was placed in a likely approach route.

Apart from these outliers my experience with the AI stepping on my mines is good, too, so I doubt there is a bonus for the AI crossing mine fields.

Mines are best used in combination with wire when playing the AI. Either put them behind wire so the engineers can't close to 20m without crossing the wire - or put them before the wire where you expect the AI to cross the wire. The former tactic sees the AI cross the wire. Forward units hit mines. Forward untis retreat while following units are caught on wire. Then add arty (treebursts!) or MG fire. The latter sees the AI crossing the wire, receiving incoming and panicking into the mines.

Gruß

Joachim

[NameUsedBefore]

^ That's horrifying.

[tar]

My best anti-AI trick was to put mines in a small clump of trees, flanked by wire. The AI troops would get shot up in the wire and then crawl to the woods where the mines were. It was devastating.

[RockinHarry]

Another question is, do craters alone decrease a minefields effectiveness?? I mean craters placed by scenario designers during scenario setup and not caused by artillery later in the game! I made some strange observations while testing the huertgen Beta lately. Some minefields work (or appear to) better or worse in different terrain, which would be not surprising actually. ..and I´m quite sure, I at least noticed once that a normal (not daisy chain) AT minefield was discovered at range of 40 to 60 meters. That was in my own scenario, so I could be sure it wasn´t a daisy chain actually. At other times I could not even discover multiple stacked on top of each other AT minefields with several engineer units in closest vicinity. Misterious... :eek:

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by RockinHarry:

Another question is, do craters alone decrease a minefields effectiveness?? I mean craters placed by scenario designers during scenario setup and not caused by artillery later in the game! I made some strange observations while testing the huertgen Beta lately. Some minefields work (or appear to) better or worse in different terrain, which would be not surprising actually. ..and I´m quite sure, I at least noticed once that a normal (not daisy chain) AT minefield was discovered at range of 40 to 60 meters. That was in my own scenario, so I could be sure it wasn´t a daisy chain actually. At other times I could not even discover multiple stacked on top of each other AT minefields with several engineer units in closest vicinity. Misterious... :eek:

still interested in this! Any experiences or observations? :confused:

[Slappy]

My experience is that there are some mine spotting bugs. I've had rare occurances where I've spotted mines (not DC) on turn two far in the opponent's setup area where none of my troops had LOS. I'm not sure what the issue is, but occasionally mines will be spotted when they shouldn't be. That can happen at 40m or 1000m, leading to mine spotting misunderstandings. My personal belief is the dual coding role that mines play as "sort of units and sort of terrain" is not implememented perfectly, leading to occasional early appearance.