John Kettler Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Richie, There's a shot here of part of Mamayev Kurgan which I believe you'll find of considerable interest. Apparently, the mound was terraced, and it's clearly visible on the overhead recon shot under Stalingrad Up Close. http://www.fireonthevolga.com/ Just found this over on the Stalingrad Forum link from the above site. This is a fabulous 3-D study of WIP of Mamayev Kurgan. The detail's amazing, and the terracing I spoke of is readily apparent, as are the deep balkas in which one of the major Russian CP's had its shelters. http://members.boardhost.com/stalingrad/msg/1169701178.html Regards, John Kettler [ February 06, 2007, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Great Stuff! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 7, 2007 Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 Richie, Glad you liked it, but hope you feel the same way after spending a couple of hundred hours terracing your scenario map! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Thanks HEAPS for the links, they really do ROCK, but... probably not. I do suspect the realism of terracing might have been 'overwritten' by the thousands of tons of shells and bombs that landed on it... They don't show up in the overhead photo I used but the hundreds of craters certainly do... Something the 3D model lacked? I think I'll wait for one of the 150 people who downloaded it to actually play it and review it before I mess with a scenario that worked quite well the way it was. Feel free to be the first! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 8, 2007 Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 Richie, If that's true, why does the first MK photo I linked to show the terracing? Was it taken before the attacks began in earnest? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Absolutely... Your photo. My photo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 8, 2007 Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 Richie, I see your point now. The extraordinary bombardment seems to have averaged out the ground, practically obliterating the terracing in the process. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Hmmm, there are roads, part of a railroad (?) and buildings in the second photo, in the first there's no sign of them. Looks more like some part of the tennis-racket to me! My guess is that you have photos of different places here. Greetings, Hetzer. [ February 08, 2007, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 The Mamayev Kurgan was adjacent to the 'Tennis Raquette', south of the Red October Steel Mills and North of the city centre... That is the Mamayev Kurgan, the tartar burial mound, identified as photo 1. I think the photos from the website are from August 1942? That would be prior to the majority of the fighting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Sorry for my mistake ! Could you please mark the spot of the Mamayev Kurgan on one of the 3d photos ? I fear I'm completly confused without your help! Greetings, Hetzer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Look for the heighest terrain...that's the Mamayev Kurgan. It was the highest ground in Stalingrad - which is why the fighting for it was so bitter. In the 3-D images it is the largest hill whose sides are cut by balkas (ravines). It gave panoramic views of the city and the Volga: http://mamayevhill.volgadmin.ru/00_n.htm [ February 08, 2007, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Melnibone ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 The terraces appear to have returned although the tennis racquet is no longer complete! http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&om=1&z=16&ll=48.742875,44.537544&spn=0.011348,0.020084&t=k 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 High altitude panoramic photo about north Industrial part of Stalingrad. Photo taken 28.10.1942. 1. Tractor factory. 2."Barrikady" gun factory. 3."Red October" metal factory. 4. "Tennis racket" area. 5. Mamaev Hill 6. Airfield. http://www.stalingrad-info.com/Stalingrad281042.jpg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Now I'm getting confused. The Mamaev Kurgan appears to be the large mound labeled Photo 1 in Hetzer's large 3D image. The Tennis Raquette includes the area labelled Photo 2 in Htezer's large 3D image. When I look at Richie's post of the two photo's, the image labeled "Your photo" looks like an upside down version of the area labeled Photo 1 in Hetzer's large 3D image. Whereas the image labeled "My photo" shows the two converging roads and the curving railroad(?) track that appear in the area labeled Photo 2 in Hetzer's image. I think I have to conclude from that that Richie's photo is an aerial shot of the Tennis Raquette and not the Mamaev Kurgan. But I have a question. What, exactly, do those terraces consist of ? I've never been to Stalingrad so I haven't walked the ground, but they look like planted rows of vegetation rather than constructions. If they're just plantings of something done by a tractor, I would think they would leave some trace after a prolonged bombardment, but wouldn't be that prominent. If, on the other hand, they're partially constructed (furrows and what have you), that would probably be visible even after prolonged bombardment. Aerial photographs of landscape is a funny business. You dig a ditch or build a wall, and traces of it will still be visible from the air three thousand years later. Not the wall or ditch itself, but vegetation will grow more thickly or sparsely depending on whether there is a wall or a trench under it. That's why archaeologist will sometime buzz around in low-flying planes when there are lots of late afternoon shadows on the ground. I'm not familiar enough with the landscape to know what I'm talking about, but to me those terraces look a bit more like plowing and plantings than constructions. Less prominent, but harder to completely eradicate. I guess what that means is that the Kurgan should have heavily disordered rows of brush (and scattered trees?) on it rather than stone walls or hedges. By the way, what grass mod are they using? [ February 08, 2007, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Philippe ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Originally posted by Philippe: I think I have to conclude from that that Richie's photo is an areal shot of the Tennis Raquette and not the Mamaev Kurgan. I tend to agree! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Originally posted by Philippe: I guess what that means is that the Kurgan should have heavily disordered rows of brush (and scattered trees?) on it rather than stone walls or hedges.Depends - shortly after the battle started there was no vegetation left at all - according to my reading - it was a blasted moonscape. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Edit: Thank you very much for the clarification Melnibone and your thoughts about the matter Philippe! I made a quick 'n dirty overlay with Paint Shop Pro, and - well, see for yourself: Although both pics don't match exactly (cause of different viewing-angles), I think it's quite safe to say that Richie's aerial photo shows a part of the "Tennisschläger", and John Kettler's photo shows a part of the "Höhe 102" (Mamaev Hill). I agree that the heavy bombardment on Mamaev hill changed the landscape very drastically, but we don't know if the terracing was destroyed completly by just comparing Richie's and John's pictures. Best Regards, Hetzer. [ February 08, 2007, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 I agree! The plate (prior to page 311) out of John Erickson's, The Road to Stalingrad is clearly mislabelled and depicts an area of the Tennis Raquette, not as it says, the Mamayev Kurgan... That is the photo I used above... How **** is that? :mad: Mind you, that website wasn't available 12 months ago when the scenario was put together. The ground area for my map of the Mamayev Kurgan was derived from Geert Rottiers Stalingrad map and other sources... Unfortunately, those two roads weren't. Interesting isn't it? You'd trust a well regarded book to be correct in the photos it lists... Well I guess I need to work over the scenario some... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 *sigh* 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Sorry for ruining your day Richie, but I thought it would be better to clear this up! Just to make it complete, I made another quick 'n dirty overlay with John's picture on another 3d pic by Russ. Original: Overlay: So, John's photo shows the northeastern slope of "hill 102", correct ? Best Regards, Hetzer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 8, 2007 Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 Outstanding work, people! We have now become the blind men and the elephant! Richie's lunar landscape gave me heartburn, but I didn't know why, and the ground was too torn up for me to orient very well, either. I don't have Photoshop or decent maps, hence couldn't do an effective intercomparison. Now, we know that we're actually seeing two different things, but this isn't as bad as it looks. Why? Despite the needed map rework (and/or force adjustments to reflect the actual combat location) and the clear evidence of the MK terraces, at least of when they were taken, we've learned something most useful. What? The location of Chuikov's CP! How? The accounts I've seen say that it was located in a deep balka on the slopes of MK away from the Volga. They further say that a German attack set oil? tanks atop MK afire and that the flaming contents nearly roasted the general and his staff alive when they ran down into his CP, forcing evacuation. Seems to me that the balka which fits that description is the one just to the right of the image superimposed by Hetzer38, in the right foreground of the larger image. Sure looks to me as though the ground slopes that way. What do the rest of you think? This is turning into a fascinating study of overhead imagery, historical accounts, and ground truth. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer38 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Originally posted by John Kettler: ...Seems to me that the balka which fits that description is the one just to the right of the image superimposed by Hetzer38, in the right foreground of the larger image. Sure looks to me as though the ground slopes that way. What do the rest of you think? ... Could well be, I'll try to find some more proof for this ! BTW, I just found the "Uber"-Stalingrad-photo! Rasteraufnahme der deutschen Luftwaffe vom Norden Stalingrads vom 26. Oktober 1942. This shows a brilliant aerial shot of the northern part of Stalingrad, including a fine view of MK and it's terraces on October 26th, 1942. Make sure to check out the rest of the site's photos too! (if you haven't already!) Greetings, Hetzer38. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 8, 2007 Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 Hetzer38, Nice finds! The former needs a zoom feature, and the site needs a translation button. Other than that, terrific! Edited to say that this shot, overlooking MK and clearly showing the pulverized Tennis Racket below, reveals terracing on MK to be very much in evidence. See bottom right corner of image. http://www.privates-antiquariat.de/st_kampf003-2.jpg Why balkas provide such good cover and concealment. Note the dugouts in the balka walls. http://www.privates-antiquariat.de/st_kampf109.jpg MK as German infantry tries to storm it early on. Why early? There's still grass on the ground! http://www.privates-antiquariat.de/st_kampf043a.jpg Regards, John Kettler [ February 08, 2007, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 That is good work fellas! I'm extremely grateful to all you guys for discovering my error! Just for the record, I think the bit your refering to about the oil tanks and Chuikov's HQ being shrouded with smoke and surrounded by fire actually occured just to the southeast of the Red October Steel Mills, just on the bank of the Volga. He moved his HQ there when it looked like the Germans might over run the Mamayev Kurgan. I still believe most of the terracing would have disappeared in the shelling. If you look at the contrast of the late photo of the 'tennis raquette' compared to the earlier shots, I think you can recognise the transformation by artillery and bombs. I suspect the Mamayev Kurgan would have suffered the same fate... What I really need to do is include the Balkas in my scenario... They will certainly add another element to it! The thing that annoys me most is I bought that book on the bassis of that one photo. I drove 40kms out of my way to pick the book up. At the time it was the only war shot I had seen of the effects of shelling on the Kurgan... Once again, excellent work fellas! I'll include you all in the scenario references and thankyou's! Maybe I should get you to look over my aerial shots of the Red October Steel Mill I'm putting into a CM Map... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Oh Yeah, Here's the plate from the book... Hopefully I'll get a chance to rework the scenario this weekend... Unfortunately these days, I have so much on my plate with the two campaigns I run and Tournament Master over at We Band of Brothers... & RL, something always seems to take a back seat... [ February 09, 2007, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Richie ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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