Calling all tankers: Firing procedures - can you enlighten us?

[WineCape]

Been playing CM now for almost 3 years, in all this time taking for granted the gunner’s smooth firing/loading operation of the tank about to fire. Do loaders ever screw up in loading the breech, apart from the wrong shell type?

Anyone here know the exact firing procedures and commands issued by the TC to their tank personnel while in combat or about to engage/fire enemy tanks? Modern or WWII tanks. Just wondering what each person’s job is within the tank when an enemy tank is sighted, apart from sweating and praying that the first shot is on target?

The TC’s orders to his gunner, the process of the gunner loading the breech, getting range, off-loading the shell from the breach. These shells are hot after a discharge, are they not? I assume there were a set of firing SOP to follow for WWII TC’s depending on the different tanks and how do they differ from Axis tanks regarding actual fire procedures?

Would be interesting to know from those in-the-know or had experience of firing against enemy tanks in combat.

Sincerely

--Charl

[ February 28, 2003, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: WineCape ]

[felixgrey]

My tanker knowledge is a little rusty, so if I screw up someone come help me out.

US Tanker commands - M1A1 (They have changed for the A2s)

TC- (sees target)

Gunner, Sabot, Tank

(This alerts the gunner, tells the loader which ammo to use, and IDs the target)

Gunner - Identified (Spots and lases the target)

Loader - Up (Means round is loaded and the maingun is armed)

TC - Fire

TC - (after hit)

Target, cease fire (tells the gunner he has hit and destroyed the target and that no more rounds are needed)

There are lots of variations depending on target types and which ammo you need to use. But that is the basic fire commands. If you want more just ask.

Scott

[SgtMuhammed]

Normally the tank would have a round in the main gun, either AP or HE depending on unit SOP or expected threat. After firing the first round the crew begins "crew drills" to feed the gun.

The TC points out the target and the round to use:

Target, tank, 2 o'clock, load AP.

As the gunner slews the turret the loader pulls the right round from the ready rack and shoves it in the breach. When he is done he calls out "AP up" or loaded or something to that effect.

The TC is also trying to help the gunner find the target by directing the lay of the gun. If a large correction is needed he will say "Right" or left as apporpriate, until the gun is nearly on target then he says "Steady" and then "On" when the gun is aligned.

If the gunner can see the target he calls out "Target" or "Identified" and then "On the Way" or "Firing" and fires.

The drill is repeated till the target or the tank is destroyed or can no longer be engaged.

The shell casings are ejected from the cannon automatically and will rattle around the floor of the tank stinking the place up and making smoke until the crew can throw them out.

This is more of a modern crew drill but I don't imagine that it is much different from WWII.

A couple of differences for today would be that the command would be either load SABOT or HEAT. The gunner will then fire the laser range finder and then fire the cannon. Also modern shell casings, at least for the M1, are consumed by the firing of the cannon and only a small nub is ejected.

Yes occationally loaders did load the wrong round. This usually ends up in a miss as the ballistic properties are different. HE and HEAT rounds will tend to fall short if you are expecting AP or SABOT while the later will go long if you are expecting the former.

As stated earlier there are endless variations which is why training and crew cohesion are so important in a tank.

[ February 28, 2003, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: sGTGoody ]

[felixgrey]

SGT Goody,

Thanks for the back up. I've had my loader put in the wrong round on a gunnery before and you either get a dirt diver or a round that looks like it was launched by arty. I've also seen gunner for get to switch between coax and maingun. So you either get a tank round at troop targets or coax at a tank.

SGT Goody you at NTC?

I'm sitting here in Germany

Scott

[SgtMuhammed]

I'm here in the land of Wurst. I was in Hohenfels before I ETS'd.

[felixgrey]

I'm sitting in Bamberg waiting for the day to end.

Good to meet ya!

[SgtMuhammed]

Same here. What are you doing in Bamberg? Going somewhere?

Drop me an email sometime.

Sorry folks, you can have your thread back now.

[ February 28, 2003, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: sGTGoody ]

[felixgrey]

I'm currently working on a brigade staff.

Believe me, I miss tanking.

I just got back from Macedonia and looks like I'll prob. heading back out fairly soon.

Wonder how many posts it takes to loose my newb status.

Cape, sorry to hijack the thread...did we answer your question?

Scott

[SgtMuhammed]

I think it takes about 30.

[Jaws]

I was Tank Commander on Leopard 1, Leopard 2 A4 and an instructor on the Leopard A5 for officers and NCOs. Just at this moment we ( the Dutch Army) is switching to the A6.

A Tank Commander will order battle settings for the whole tank depending on the threat analyses.

For example:

Sabot (when armour threat)

1500m

So if we are starting an operation the tank is battle ready and the gun is loaded as all other systems.

If he engaged an enemy tank the only thing he shouts is.

TANK, FIRE

He is able to direct the gunner on the target with a commander joystick and in 1 second the gunner will see the target.

This is the sign for the loader to get a new sabot round and load the gun as soon the first shot is fired.

The driver will ask for directions depending the situation.

It is not necessary anymore to stop the tank because of the modern techniques.

The gunner will call AIMED and then shout I FIRE.

If it is a hit the commander will shout CANON STOP otherwise he will call REAPEAT FIRE and so on.

Of course in the Second World War they had other techniques.

For example the commander had to direct the gunner in a 12 hour direction. So a command was as follows.

STOP, (driver will stop)

1o CLOCK, (action for gunner)

TURN RIGHT, (action for gunner)

HEAT, (action for loader)

ADJUST RANGE, (action for gunner) (there were more types of systems to adjust the range in that time)

VEHICLE, (if possible type)

AIMED, (call form commander)

AIMED, (call from gunner)

FIRE, (gunner get his order)

I FIRE, (call from gunner to warn the tank crew and sit tight)

MINUS or PLUS or HIT. (Call from anyone of the crew who as able to see the hit)

REPEAT FIRE or CANON STOP.

Then I saw an interesting documentary over the Battle of Kursk. The Russians just put Tank crews together from all over the country.

So a Tank commander told that he was not able to talk with his driver because of their languish barrier. So he had connected 2 ropes on his driver to indicate his intend. If he pulled right the driver turned right and so on.

You can imagining the chance of survival of a average Russian tank crew in the Second world war.

I can tell you a lot more of this subject but this covered the most important things of the Fire commands in a tank.

[ February 28, 2003, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Jaws ]

[felixgrey]

30? Well I guess I have a way to go.

Cape,

Firing commands are different depending on the equipment. I was a scout PL for a while on Brads and the firing commands were different then on tanks.

Other interesting facts. As you know, when your buttoned up you can't see very much - you be surprised how many times my driver picked up the target before those of us in the turret did. So a good driver is moving you from cover to cover doing sagger drills and is calling out targets.

While buttoned up the loader has one job - to feed the beast. Unlike WWII tanks - our shells mostly disentigrate when we fire them, so we only have the back part left after we fire.

The TC is directing the Gunner, Driver and is trying to talk on the radio at the same time. The gunner is just searching for targets.

As a tank PL - I was talking to my crew, the tanks in my platoon, to my CO, to the scouts (sir and Ground) I was working with and sometimes I was calling in arty. It gets really busy in there.

Hope this helps.

Scott

[felixgrey]

Jaws,

I find it very interesting how different our fire commands are from country to country.

I guess it goes to show there are any ways to do the same thing.

Scott

[CombinedArms]

I was watching a TV documentary about the M1A2 Abrams last night--amazing tank! One TC said he never feels as safe as when within the M1A2, and I can readily believe that! The crew members also talked about how comfortable their tank is: very different from a WWII Sherman or T-34, where discomfort and vulnerability went hand in hand. Any tank in WWII involved compromise: if it was well armored, it was also slow. If it was fast, it was also vulnerable to AP. Side armor could never be quite thick enough--even for a KT. All of the problematic compromises seem to have been resolved in late model MBTs. I guess that's why an Abrams costs 6 million bucks.

One question: I heard somewhere that the Abrams no longer carries HE rounds--it's a pure anti-armor vehicle. Is that true? And if so, what's the logic of that...wouldn't you sometimes be likely to encounter infantry and need some HE? Or do other arms take care of them? I find in CM I'm firing HE from tanks a lot more often than AP. And apparently a post-WWII analysis of US tank destroyers found they fired something like 5 times as much HE as AP.

[WineCape]

Scott,

Much obliged. No worries about hi-jacking the thread. If 2 tankers meet up because of the thread, I say fight it out via CMBB/CMBO

Very interesting. Thanks for all those that chimed in.

Sincerely

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[felixgrey]

CA,

As far as I know (and I'll ask around if you like) we still use HE with the M1s. We fire HE at anything other than a tank. So BMPs, BRDMS, Trucks. etc we train the fire commands to shoot HE.

The only things we are trained to fire SABOT at is tanks and helos.

We used to have a round called the MPAT (Multi Purpose Anti-tank) which I think they phased out because I've never seen one.

As for our basic load, when I was in Kuwait in '99 we carried (if I remember correctly) 25 Sabot 15 Heat 10000 rnds 7.62 and 5000 rnds of .50cal.

You of course can change your load out deppending on missions/ ammo availibility.

Hope this helps.

Scott

[Jaws]

Originally posted by felixgrey:

Jaws,

I find it very interesting how different our fire commands are from country to country.

I guess it goes to show there are any ways to do the same thing.

Scott

Yes it funny to see this.But it all depends on the systems a tank has and the way you train your soldiers and last but not least the culture in every country.

[BadgerDog]

I can't speak for modern voice procedure used between tank crew members, but I can give you the battle engagement procedures used by Commonwealth armored forces during WWII and definitely well into the late 1960's.

Here's a great anecdotal story about being a Sherman gunner from an old friend, Harry Cluff (Deceased), 1st Hussars (6th Cdn Armored Regt). I diarized this discussion from a conversation I had with him in 1965, when I was just learning to be a young Sherman (M4A2E8) crew commander.

He was driving along a road in France shortly after June 11th, 1944 (the Black Day of the 1st Hussars), where they lost most of the Regiment to an SS Panzer division counter attack, therefore he had no wingman. It was a narrow, barely two lane type thing and all of a sudden, a Tiger (he says...hmmm... I wonder about that ID) pulled across in front of them broadside at about 600 yards. His Crew Commander hollered "shot action" (meaning load AP), "shell action" was HE and screamed into the intercom "no traverse - 600 Tank- front" (meaning select the tank target at 600 yards to your front). The Loader/Op shoved an AP round up the breach and hollered "loaded". Gunner Harry bore sighted (it filled the sighting scope) with a response "600 Tank - ON !! (meaning he was ready). At this point, the Panzer begin to traverse its turret around 90 degrees towards them. The CC yelled "Fire" and Gunner Harry yelled back "Firing Now" (don't want the Loader/Op to lose his hand behind breach, so the gunner always indicates he's firing) and he hammered his foot down on the electrical solenoid switch for the master weapon. He said the round hit mid turret on the Panzer and angled off straight up in the air. The CC repeated the fire order drill once again. A second round deflected straight up in the air also. The Panzer continued what appeared to be a manual slow traverse. A third Sherman AP round was let loose and this one hit near rear deck, deflecting into the woods, but still no damage and the Panzer's turret was almost on them. So, Gunner Harry's CC hollered, that's enough for us and told them to "bail". Gunner Harry went out through the CC's cupola, following the CC as they dove off the Sherman and ran into the woods, falling into the grass. He said that maybe 15 seconds later there was a bang and when he lifted his head out of the grass, his Sherman was "brewing up". They ran through the woods and walked back to squadron HQ where they were issued a new Sherman that had come off the boats from England. They never got into trouble for ditching that tank, but he did say he was some "p*&&%$" because he lost all his kit in the tank they abandoned, including his brandy snifter.

The voice procedure used by Gunner Harry above was exactly as I was trained twenty years later, ironically on virtually the same tank model that he used in WWII.

Regards,

Badger

Sherman (M4A2E8) & Centurion

Group 3 Gunner (RCAC)

Group 2 Driver Mechanic Tracked (RCAC)

Group 2 Signaler (RCAC)

CC and Trooper Leader Instructor

[WineCape]

Badger,

A dangerous "little" story. Thanks for sharing it!

I suppose the modern SABOT charge do pack a mean exploding punch. Any idea what mm thickness they can penetrate if fired from 120mm guns?

[SgtMuhammed]

Just a quick note. The M1 doesn't carry vanilla HE rounds anymore. The stardard load is a mix of HEAT and SABOT rounds although some of the newer rounds are probably starting to be carried now (like MPAT and other more exotic types). Still the HEAT round packs quite an esplosive punch and is useful against soft targets. The original 105 armed M1's had a more gp loadout with HE, HEAT, and SABOT.

Not sure exactly what the 120 can penetrate but my buddy who fought in the Gulf told me about firing through Iraqi berms and taking out T72s on the other side. He also fired all his engagements from the TC seat because his gunner refused to pull the trigger. So his gunner would aim and Dave would fire.

JAWS,

I have crawled around and fought against the Leo A5 and A6, beautiful tank. One question though, why the screen separating the loader from the rest of the turret? The Leo seems a lot more cramped than the M1.

James

[ February 28, 2003, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: sGTGoody ]

[Ace Pilot]

Originally posted by felixgrey:

The only things we are trained to fire SABOT at is tanks and helos.

OK, Scott. Why fire SABOT (is that the same as AP?) at helos? I would have thought you would use the same ammo on helos that you'd use on trucks and other "soft" vehicles.

Thanks,

Ace

[Jeff Duquette]

I was in a National Guard Tank unit for six years. Our unit was equipped the old M48A5 with the 105mmM68 we carried SABOT, HEAT and HEP. The HEP round is High Explosive Plastic. I think this was similar to British HESH. It was supposed to be effective against bunkers, armored vehicles, buildings etc. It fragmented, but I dunno how it would stack up against HE for troops in the open.

As JAWS relates we were also trained in battlesight engagements. I think we used something like 1200m for a preloaded SABOT round and 800m for preloaded HEAT…the preselected range in theory being variable dependent upon tactical situation, terrain, visibility, etc.

Interestingly enough I have gone through old tank gunnery materials for some of the various belligerents during WWII … including the 1943, 1945, and 1950 editions of FM 17-12 and the War Office Manual "Sherman Tanks Armament Traing" Jan 1945. Only German tank gunnery training material elaborates on something like battlesight gunnery. German gunners were trained to use a preset range of 800m to ensure a decent first round hit probability. British, Canadian and US Army fire commands included a range command given to the gunner by the TC.

[ February 28, 2003, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Jeff Duquette ]

[TN]

Originally posted by sGTGoody:

[QB]

"Not sure exactly what the 120 can penetrate but my buddy who fought in the Gulf told me about firing through Iraqi berms and taking out T72s on the other side. He also fired all his engagements from the TC seat because his gunner refused to pull the trigger. So his gunner would aim and Dave would fire."

I read a few www sources recently about the effects of DU ammo in the Gulf War, and there was the same story. A stuck M1A1 was attacked by 3 Iraqi T-72s. The first was wiped out by a frontal shot, the second tried to flee but a shot penetrated the engine and destroyed it, and the third one hid behind a berm. The M1 fired through the berm and destroyed the target. So at least that story can be confirmed. There was also a documented friendly-fire incident in which a DU SABOT was fired at two Bradleys standing side-by-side and it penetrated both easily.

I couldn't, however, find a confirmation that I was looking for on M1 armor thickness. I read earlier that in some of the friendly-fire incidents in the Gulf an Abrams hit another in the back of the turret with something and the shot didn't penetrate.

[Kong]

I am bumping cause this is a great thread!!

Thanks for the Info guys!

I also just saw the program on the Discovery Channel about training M1A1 crews. Firing the .50 Cal looked like A LOT of fun!!

[felixgrey]

Ace,

We used SABOT to fire at helos because of the speed of the round. SABOT are very quick. HEAT has a very noticible arc in it when you fire - SABOT goes very straight when you fire it. Thus it's much easier to hit a target like a helo.

SGT Goody is right about the HEAT rnds.

Scott

[SgtMuhammed]

kking,

The .50 Cal is one of the funnest weapons I have ever fired.

The effective armor thickness of the M1 is still classified. It's actual thickness for the turret front and the glacias plate is about 24 inches of composite encased in steel. The sides and rear are a lot thinner, of course.

One of the combat reports on the M1 tells about one that got bogged and couldn't get free. It was decided to abandon the tank as recovery assets were too far away.

Once the crew got out the PL decided to destroy the vehicle lest it fall into Iraqi hands so the platoon turn and fired on it. One shot penetrated the rear turret and set of the ready ammo blowing out the blast pannels on the top of the tank but nothing else. Another penetrated the engine and started a fire that lasted all of about a second as the halogen system kicked in. Several other shots bounced off or did only superficial damage.

Well it so happened that an M88 recovery vehicle arrived and was able to pull the tank free. It was back in combat the next day.

James