What really happened to the Russians in 1941

[Hunter]

Originally posted by jacobs_ladder2:

Also, for German KStNs (TO&Es) for the period there are several good sources, but among them are three outstanding ones, IMO.

Not meaning to ignore Tessin and Jentz, but for us English speakers, look at Leo Niehorster's site here, George Nafziger's books here or this awesome site (look at the KStNs).

I just picked up two of Dr. Niehorster's books and they are fantastic (despite a few odd typos).

Cheers

Paul

Fantastic, thanks for that info. Great sites.

[jacobs_ladder2]

Originally posted by Hunter:

Fantastic, thanks for that info. Great sites.

That last one is great, eh. I found the site a long time ago, but never noticed the KStNs. Someone just pointed them out to me today.

Also, the Bundesarchiv will apparently sell documents. I haven't figured out how to do it yet, but I'll look into it. Imagine getting your hands on what they have.

I've been working on some OoBs for some of the units we've been discussing. If you have any questions, please email them to me and I will help if I can.

Cheers

Paul

[John Kettler]

I know this thread is quite old, albeit fascinating and very informative. After reading it start to finish, I'd planned on talking about how the Abwehr conned Stalin into purging his own officer corps, but I now find new information has become available.

Recent scholarship indicates the Abwehr thought it had caused the purge, but really the Abwehr wound up being used by Stalin as an excuse for doing what he planned to do all along. The story's here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_of_Trotskyist_Anti-Soviet_Military_Organization

"Before 1990, it was frequently argued that the case against the eight generals was based on forged documents created by the Abwehr, documents which deluded Stalin into believing that a plot was being fomented by Tukhachevsky and other Red Army commanders to depose him. However, after Soviet archives were opened to researchers after the fall of the Soviet Union, it became clear that Stalin actually concocted the fictitious plot by the most famous and important of his Soviet generals in order to get rid of them in a believable manner.[1] At Stalin's order, the NKVD instructed one of its agents, Nikolai Skoblin, to pass to Reinhard Heydrich, chief of the German Nazi SD (Sicherheitsdienst) intelligence arm, concocted information suggesting a plot by Tukhachevsky and the other Soviet generals against Stalin.[2] Seeing an opportunity to strike a blow at both the Soviet Union and his arch-enemy Admiral Canaris of the German Abwehr, Heydrich immediately acted on the information and undertook to improve on it, forging a series of documents implicating Tukhachevsky and other Red Army commanders; these were later passed to the Soviets via Beneš and other neutral parties. Joseph Stalin's archives indeed contain a number of messages received during 1920–30s duly reporting the possible involvement of Tukhachevsky with the "German Nazi leadership".

While the Germans believed they had successfully deluded Stalin into executing his best generals, in reality they had merely served as useful and unwitting pawns of Stalin. It is notable that the forged documents were not even used by Soviet military prosecutors against the generals in their secret trial, instead relying on false confessions extorted or beaten out of the defendants.[3]"

1.^ Lukes, Igor, Czechoslovakia Between Stalin and Hitler: The Diplomacy of Edvard Beneš in the 1930s, Oxford University Press (1996), ISBN 0-19-510267-3, ISBN 978-0-19-510267-3, p. 95

2.^ Lukes, Igor, Czechoslovakia Between Stalin and Hitler: The Diplomacy of Edvard Beneš in the 1930s, Oxford University Press (1996), ISBN 0-19-510267-3, ISBN 978-0-19-510267-3, p. 95

3.^ Lukes, Igor, Czechoslovakia Between Stalin and Hitler: The Diplomacy of Edvard Beneš in the 1930s, Oxford University Press (1996), ISBN 0-19-510267-3, ISBN 978-0-19-510267-3, p. 95

Regards,

John Kettler