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Col Deadmarsh

Immobilizations In CM And Why I Want Them Reduced

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First off, I'd like to say that I don't mind the bogging when it seems plausible; going over damp fields, moving over soft ground, etc. But I do have a problem with the seemingly overdone immobilization that results from bogging.

The more immobilizations, the more the game becomes about luck, not skill.

I should state right now that I don't do stupid things like drive my tanks over soft ground where chances of bogging are greatly increased. Sometimes though, you have to do things like cross railroad tracks. How any tank could bog on a track is beyond me. The track itself is only a couple of inches high. So how could these tanks bog so easily on them in dry weather?

Just recently I had this happen to a tank of mine. I was surprised that it even bogged but when it became immobilized, I was completely shocked. After all, this is a tracked vehicle and not a wheeled one?

I've also had tanks bog and then immobilize when first entering scattered trees. Again, I'm not driving through long patches of them but I might have to go through a square to get to the other side so I can move on grass; and yet seemingly every time, in dry weather I might add, the tank bogs and then immobilizes. Aren't scattered trees just single trees in loose groups? Why then all the bogging and subsequent immobilizations?

Please guys, let's cut down on the immobilization of armored units in the next chapter of CM. This whole guessing game of when a tank should bog and then become useless is just that, a guessing game. Why ruin a modern-day chess match by throwing in a whole bunch of luck needed to win?

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Moving over a railroad track is in reality something that tankers wouldn't want to do unnecessarily - the pressure that the iron rail puts on the vehicle tracks can be enough to break the chain. Thus, tracks cause an increased bogging chance.

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Bogged message doesnt mean only immobilization because soft ground or similar.

This is an standard message and includes immobilizations because technical problems or engine failures.

The WWII tanks reliability wasnt very good. For example, in CM, sometimes, one of your halftracks ends bogged in open and dry ground. One explanation is, a failure in transmission (tracks axis or engine or gear, etc).

Well, at least, this is what i think. (I read about this a lot of time ago, but i cannot remember where).

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I kinda agree with you, but not really. The bogging down happens usually when it should happen. So there's nothing wrong there, IMO. I would like to see maybe a little bit less immobilizations and maybe more bog time. Rather then having the AFV become stuck or just bogged in for the usual 1-4 turn time frame. But rather just being bogged for several turns, like a 4-8 turn time frame.

But im really not complaining.

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Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

First off, I'd like to say that I don't mind the bogging when it seems plausible; going over damp fields, moving over soft ground, etc. But I do have a problem with the seemingly overdone immobilization that results from bogging.

The more immobilizations, the more the game becomes about luck, not skill.

I should state right now that I don't do stupid things like drive my tanks over soft ground where chances of bogging are greatly increased. Sometimes though, you have to do things like cross railroad tracks. How any tank could bog on a track is beyond me. The track itself is only a couple of inches high. So how could these tanks bog so easily on them in dry weather?

Just recently I had this happen to a tank of mine. I was surprised that it even bogged but when it became immobilized, I was completely shocked. After all, this is a tracked vehicle and not a wheeled one?

I've also had tanks bog and then immobilize when first entering scattered trees. Again, I'm not driving through long patches of them but I might have to go through a square to get to the other side so I can move on grass; and yet seemingly every time, in dry weather I might add, the tank bogs and then immobilizes. Aren't scattered trees just single trees in loose groups? Why then all the bogging and subsequent immobilizations?

Please guys, let's cut down on the immobilization of armored units in the next chapter of CM. This whole guessing game of when a tank should bog and then become useless is just that, a guessing game. Why ruin a modern-day chess match by throwing in a whole bunch of luck needed to win?

I couldn't agree more. . . and you said it very well above.

You know, this was a major topic of discussion a year or 2 ago. . . .lots of pissed off folk like yourself. Would you believe they actually tamed the immobilizations in BB significantly with the patches? It's still too high a % IMO as well.

FYI, it is better still in AK.

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Tanks are actually relatively fragile - I don't have a problem with them getting stuck as often as they do in the game. Especially if you're dealing with relatively inexperienced drivers.

Drive on gravel, take a tight turn, and you might throw track.

I can't see railroad tracks breaking a drift pin or otherwise damaging a suspension, but I would certainly slow down before crossing them if I could.

I've seen tanks immobilized by comm wire - a thin communications wire. It can get wrapped around a drive sprocket, shred the seal, and cause the final drive to sieze up. NOT fun.

BUT - while I think the frequency that tanks get immobilized in the game isn't extraordinarily unrealistic, I DO think it makes the game - which is a game, first and foremost - a bit too reliant on luck...

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I agree on the hazard that railroad tracks might cause - it's still a steel beam that's meant to handle a pressure probably heavier than what the tank treads do. And since WW2 tanks didn't exactly have shock absorbers, grinding a metal tread against a railroad rail is probably going to only harm the former.

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I think it has to do more with the road wheels of a tank trying to lift afore mentioned tank over a rail.

Road wheels are designed to displace the weight of the tank over a larger area.

This would seem more difficult when crossing RR tracks at a perpendicular angle.

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My opponent in a TCP game last night had some bad luck in our battle.

I had just immobilized his flanking Panther (at the cost of one of my Shermans) rendering it pretty much useless. THen, he was racing a Stug from the opposite flank, in a straight line across DRY open ground when I heard the unmistakable BOGGING sound. Nice for me, unpleasant for him.

I took advantage and raced my Wolverine up to point-blank range (from the side, of course) to dispatch it. Didn't seem fair to me.

The only thing I can say was that maybe he was gonig FAST. But Dry ground and open terrain should be smooth sailing.

I do always avoid unfavourable terrain with my AFV's if I can help it. If I HAVE to move through it, I use the MOVE command. Nice and slow.

smile.gif

Gpig

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I've always LIKED the bog/immob in this game, even though it can be as frustrating as blazes. Any game mechanic that makes you want to stick to the road network is fine by me. Open Ground certainly does not equate to a flat, manicured lawn.

I'm hoping the CMX2 has flipping & crashing, as happened in real life. Ferinstance, some rookie Canadian tankers in Italy would drive on a slope that would turn out to be too steep - they'd roll. One of the Hitlerjugend recce units encountered stiff opposition causing one of the drivers to panic and drive off the road, crashing and flipping a SPW...or maybe a PSW.

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Originally posted by chiavarm:

I think it has to do more with the road wheels of a tank trying to lift afore mentioned tank over a rail.

Certainly. I'm aware that the tank doesn't just hover above the treads. ;)

Originally posted by Gpig:

THen, he was racing a Stug from the opposite flank, in a straight line across DRY open ground when I heard the unmistakable BOGGING sound.

Once my opponent managed to bog a KV-1 on grass in VERY DRY climate conditions. That was grand. smile.gif

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Originally posted by Brent Pollock:

I've always LIKED the bog/immob in this game, even though it can be as frustrating as blazes. Any game mechanic that makes you want to stick to the road network is fine by me. Open Ground certainly does not equate to a flat, manicured lawn.

Ooo. Seconded.

I'd like to see more junk cross country in CMX2.

Taking road hubs was important in WWII, but hardly seems worthwhile in CMX1.

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Well, I agree in detail with the OP.

I hope Battlefront either tones it way down, or better, makes 'bogging' a player-determined level of probability.

As has been said, it can be a game-spoiler.

And I'd always assumed that a rail-track embankments would be the last place a AFV would get 'bogged', being as they are as smooth and firm as it's possible to make them. I'd not considered what effect the rails themselves might have.

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Agreed. I think players get misimpressions due to the golf-course appearance of "Open Ground" in CM.

I think the bog % is about right, at least in the final patches of CMBB & CMAK. I can see the argument, though, that permanent immobilizations should perhaps be a bit lower, but the immobilization period could be a longer.

Cheers,

YD

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I was reading this post and I thought Junk came up with a good option about being able to turn off that parameter. The tanks of ww2 were fairly inconsistent and when you read the personal action accounts of panzer leaders what you come across is these guys driving their tank and it breaks down and then scrambling to another tank and doing all crazy stuff that we can't imagine. The Germans did a good job in doing battle maintenance. Take a look at Tigers in the Mud by Otto Carius or any book on Peiper or Meyer

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Brent nice comment on the tanks flipping over, the only time you see that is when you drive like a madman in Battlefield 42!! I even tend to play this game by not thinking to often about bogging but you start to think about it when you are playing in a game and its your last Tiger left and it won't move!!

By the way, do the tanks stay immobilized for the entire game? what would be neat would be to have a repair truck available like in Codenamed Panzers phase one, great comments

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Once they truly bog they're immobile for the rest of the game. However, there's a window of time sometimes where you have a chance of still unbogging - if you can still give the tank orders it's still got a chance of unbogging. I think I read somewhere that putting the tank in reverse works best, never noticed much difference though - some unbog in a turn or two - rest stays bogged.

As for the subject and critique I extremely seldom get bogged tanks when I use Move and stay away from bad terrain. If the overall terrain is snowy or wet it happens sometimes but not often enough to be irritating - guess it was worse in CMBO and CMBB 1.2 though.

Somehow I think it should stay in though - CM-series is not primarily a game - it's a historical game. If it was just game to maximize fun and fairness alot of things would be different.... IMO.

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A good example of historical game unfairness is IL-2 Sturmovik - where the designers did a marvelous job at mimicking the different WWII planes characteristics, and then didn't bother to give russians any historical problems due to low production quality (every La-7 is a perfectly manufactured La-7). CM-series has pretty much captured the historic feel of what it portrays though. Keep bogging.

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speaking of realism and historical conditions, there should be no dispute about cm being a game to play for recreation and fun. it wasn't made to stand up to the experience men made on the fields of battle some sixty years ago. so the technical worries of keeping vehicles going under the most difficult conditions possible isn't modeled at all. meaning mud, frostbite, sand, lack of oil and spare parts are no things to worry about in cm. even the advantage of russian-made equipment, being crude but reliable and better adapted to the outer conditions, hasn't been simulated. so what?

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