Not another AAR!? Tux Vs. Juste

[Tux]

On the other hand, the Gods may smile on me and Juste may not have got a sound contact when my Tiger shuffled forwards amongst all the racket. In that case, given a whole heap of luck, he just might order his SU-152 to Area Fire at another building, allowing my Tiger a free shot or two.

[John Kettler]

Tux,

Tiger TC's seriously WIA/KIA? From the opening shot of an SU-152? Egad! If there's any good news, it's that a vanilla SU-152 (doubt he was able to buy very high quality)can only fire 2 rounds per minute. That's the reality of heaving 90+ lb. shells about in a confined space. Should you happen to frang his vehicle commander with a well-placed sharpshooter bullet, then this drops like a stone, not to mention that his SU will be shocked for a while. Even if it doesn't hit, he'll almost certainly button, drastically reducing his ability to spot targets. In actuality, per the Field Regs, all of his AFVs should've been long since buttoned. Meanwhile, as your men tend to their shredded leader/his remains, dust should keep you alive, maybe long enough to be ready to shoot when the dust clears. Remember the motto of the Panzers: "Klotzen, nicht kleckern!" Roughly, "Thump, don't tap!"

Here's an important suggestion for you. Do not engage the SU-152 with your glacis plate perpendicular to his inbound shot. If possible, you want some "crab" in that geometry so as to multiply the effective thickness of your armor, yet not present a usable side shot.

What are your StuGs doing, now that action's commenced?

Regards,

John Kettler

[ April 04, 2008, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[DavidFields]

You are telling this battle story wonderfully.

Your faith in flametanks is much greater than mine. I don't like my armor to be that close to anyone, and I just find their are just too many thinks in a usual CM battlefield that can prematurely knock them off. Hence, I would rather take the equivalent points in infantry.

But there are likely a lot more expert players here to comment on that.

And, maybe a tip?: given the Borg spotting, button all your armor and let the infantry do the spotting.

Isn't moving armor forward the usual mistake we all are impelled to make?--exposing it to either guns or infantry anti-tank weapons. Unless I am definitely on the attack, I try to think, "Do I really, really need to move this armor?" That is especially true, I think, when one has plenty of turns.

[ April 04, 2008, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Rankorian ]

[Tux]

Thank you both for your comments and encouragement!

John, yes the SU-152 was Area Firing at the house behind which my Tiger was hidden. Its first round overshot the house and landed near the Tiger, getting the TC. I was actually very annoyed at that.

I am bearing in mind the idea of angling my tank so as to increase the effective thickness of his armour, but the 152 will penetrate well above what my Tiger can offer at this range, so I think it's more a case of 'first hit kills'. To this end I'm relying quite heavily on Obergefreiter Hochstadter tipping the odds in my favour with a cheeky headshot.

As a combined response to both your posts, I have manually buttoned all of my remaining armour, and am trying to remember to unbutton and re-button them at each orders phase, so as to avoid them unbuttoning of their own accord during play. This includes my StuGs, which, unfortunately, somewhat limits my spotting capabilities at B, although they should still be adequate. I have yet to order any of my StuGs to relocate towards A, since the defences at B are all very much co-dependent; the removal of any one unit could leave a large gap in the areas covered by the defence. One exception to this is the two StuGs I have facing directly down the road. Seeing as Juste's main thrust appears to be down my left flank, I may consider moving one of these StuGs over towards A if needs be.

I hope I won't need to move one yet anyway. If I do it should only be because my Tiger has died, which I am trying not to let happen.

As for flame tanks, I wouldn't usually spend so heavily on them, but this battle was always going to be fought at close quarters. Considering my infantry's SMG inferiority, I thought flame would be very useful in redressing the balance somewhat. SPW 251/16s were avaialble to me, but were more expensive than FPz IIIs and are vulnerable to HMGs and ATRs. My FPz IIIs are not vulnerable to small arms, and on this map are unlikely to encounter much ranged fire from AT guns. They are protected from close assault by their attendant Jager squads (near C) or by distance from the nearest cover (.

I am currently waiting for Juste to send the next file. He has already sent two but my game is telling me they cannot be opened, perhaps because they are corrupted. Expect me to either be very confident or exceptionally annoyed next time I post an update - I fear SU Vs. Tiger is going to be absolutely decisive.

[John Kettler]

Tux,

Just so we're clear, I was saying that Russian Field Regulations mandated then, did during the Cold War, and almost certainly still do now, the buttoning of AFVs well prior to the point of expected contact. This is good as a protective measure vs. snipers, but decidedly bad from a combat efficiency standpoint. Why? U.S. Army tests found that a buttoned tank was only 50% as effective as an unbuttoned one. That's why the Abrams was designed with a hatch which provided overhead cover but still permitted effective vision in battle. As you've found, though, potshots on exposed TCs can be quite annoying.

Roger on the StuGs. Regarding your Flamm choice,

I've used the 251/16 in ROW, despite the lack of modeling of not just the separate flame projectors, but also the "fire hose" which can be used while the 251/15 is completely hidden. Worked great--till it got hit! Haven't used the Flammpanzer III myself, but the U.s. Army had an encounter with some in Sicily and wasn't happy when some rolled into gun, literally blazing away on the move. Much consternation! There are also tiny Flammpanzer IIs, but I don't know whether they're still available at this point in the war.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Yushal]

Looks like a sticky situation for your two platoons in the ville. He's going to destroy all the buildings, apparently. That's my modus operandi, at any rate. Serves a dual purpose, of course: casualties, and dust to obscure one's advance.

I think you are going to need your stugs to flank him. Is it possible on this map? I would also guess that his own sharpshooter is either on the top floor of the church if that gives LOS, or across the road there and will scout your stug locale, maybe.

Good luck, Oberst! BTW, sending you a setup. I'll see about making an aar of my own

[Tux]

Ok, we just sorted and played Turn 12.

On 5 seconds my sharpshooter takes a shot at the SU commander. I hear him say something as he buttons - do TCs ever 'say' anything if they've not been hit? Does the voice I heard mean he is out of action?

Anyway, the 152 gun stays silent for the duration of the minute, thankfully. Unfortunately, so does my 88. Hochstadter's shot revealed his position to the enemy and he was instantly cut up by a hail of squad, HMG and tank MG fire. Not only is this a sad loss for my forces, but the loss of his spotting abilities meant it took until the last seconds for my Tiger to spot any enemy armour. As the turn ends, two T-34s are spotted reversing out of LOS.

Now I'm quite annoyed. I've lost the advantage gained by reducing the SU to 'shocked' status, and his tanks have ahd a chance to withdraw and hide from my Tiger without suffering losses. God, I ache for a healthy TC in situations like this. Next turn I badly need to get someone to spot for him.

My force creeping towards C suffered a single sniper shot during the turn, but without taking any casualties.

I'm pretty sure the sniper is in the scattered trees a few metres away next to the road, and that he is trying to score some kills before he withdraws.

As for my StuGs, I may bring one over to support my Tiger, I think. I need some spotting ability and the 80mm armour should be ok against the T-34s. It will have to sit next to the heavy tank though - flanking the enemy AFVs in their current position is not a feasible option.

[Tux]

During Turn 13 all of Juste's armour withdrew to positions out of LOS of my Tiger. The SU-152 was spotted halfway through the minute still buttoned up, so I am assuming for now that my heroic scout managed to kill its commander before he died.

Either way all of his armour is pretty much unassailable now, thanks to tree cover and his ability to keyhole it all in ambush positions. The SU, for one, is in such a position as to make it suicidal for my Tiger to attmept to hunt it.

The plus side is that none of his AFVs can obtain LOS to Village A without being seen by my Tiger, so the men in the village are, for now, safe.

A single regular StuG is barrelling his way along the road between B and A as the minute ends.

My orders are minimal; I leave the Tiger in place for a minute whilst my StuG is in transit, and otherwise merely continue the advance towards C.

[ April 06, 2008, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: Tux ]

[Tux]

Turn 14 highlights the anxiety that having no TC in your Tiger can bring. For second after long second this sound contact moves 'to the edge of the trees' and then rotates until it is pointing at my (oblivious) Tiger.

During the time it takes to rotate on the spot I convince myself that Juste has managed to jam a second SU-152, perhaps by buying both at conscript level, and is stalking my blind Tiger. As the contact finishes rotating, I wince and wait for a dustbin-sized shell to crash through my tank and reduce it to a smoldering wreck... but nothing happens. I now think it is an AFV setting up in an ambush position in case my Tiger pulls forwards.

In any case, my StuG has all but arrived in position, and will be available to spot for and otherwise support my Tiger within the next half-minute:

My advance towards C is going quietly. No further contact has been made except for the fact that my squads now occasionally take cover under side arm fire from the sniper I know to be nearby. This means I am within 100m or so, and so I still believe him to be amongst the scattered trees to my platoon's right:

I have also initiated the advance across the open ground on the other side of the road:

[DavidFields]

Ok, I have reviewed your whole AAR again. Excuse any of the following which is off-base because of some misunderstanding of where units are.

And think of this as a chat, not a critique. (I assume you want some chatter, even if inadvertently misguided)

Your left flank, that is what intrigues me. You lament your loss of TC, but the "solution" to this (and a past-preventative for TC loss) would be an infantry platoon in the woods in front of, or to the front-left of, the Tiger.

Advantages: More durable spotting than a sniper. You can stay buttoned, and since this is not CMSF, whatever the platoon sees, your Tiger sees.

Disadvantages: (Which is what your were contemplating, I assume) A major attack by the enemy on your left flank would likely obliterate that squad, and thus you wanted everyone back in their strongest possible defensive positions.

As it is, if you are both bold, we might have a geographically asymetric battle, with your opponent pressing on your left flank, while you are pressing in the center. (In chess, it would be like a Sicilian Defense) At that point, each of you will have to determine whether to press the attack hard, or shift to meet the others attack.

If I were you, a key unkown is whether your opponent has sent enough power down your left flank to overwhelm your town defense.

Unfortunately, he may be able to spot your Tiger better than you can see his armor (Though he may be frustrated that he cannot move it forward.) Potentially, he could mass units in the woods on your left flank, overwhelm your town, and then hope your Tiger moves to help, leaving a flank shot.

It was very good then, that you moved your StuG as potential support.

[Heinrich505]

Tux,

I'm loving it. Keep the action coming. Tension mounts as the Reds ease forward, looking for angles. A little "Tiger Fright" is a good thing, especially as you are trying to slide the STuG in to help with sighting. I hate those 152 Zvierboys. Their shells are the size of Volkswagons, as evidenced by the broken building. This is great reading and the comments are perfect for learning things. Please keep it up.

Heinrich505

[Tux]

Rankorian, yes, you are absolutely correct and you have perfectly deduced the reason for my reluctance to put a full or half squad in the forest where my sniper was. One further incentive for using a single sniper (apart from the possibility of remaining undetected at such close range) was that he was able to take a short range shot at an enemy TC, which a squad would have been less able to make the most of.

I briefly considered buying a Panzerschreck during the force selection, and he would have been potentially even more useful from such a position, for obvious reasons, but I deemed them too expensive at worthwhile experience levels.

Had I had the points to buy a further company of men it would have solved a lot of my problems, since I would have been able to keep a whole platooon at B rather than a single green squad, another platoon in the body of my main effort in the centre and then I could have split my remaining platoon up into various scouting units, such as the one you describe. With this in mind I think I also toyed with the option of buying a green Jager battalion rather than two reg companies, but I absolutely abhor using crap troops, so I couldn't bring myself to, lol.

As for the chess analogy, again you are right. I am comfortable as I am, with him 'looking for angles' on my Tiger, but basically still looking to attack. I am also fairly confident that he has built up a lot of men in the forest nearest Village A, but I am just as confident that they can be held off for a fair while - at least long enough to maybe make him think twice about attempting it without AFV support, at which point he is back to the problem posed by my Tiger and StuG, etc and so forth.

Anyhow, I am nervous about pushing too hard in the centre. I think if I did I could probably make considerable progress quite quickly, but if I made it look too strong I am actually terrified that he would withdraw half of his armour, including his SU-152, and blow the bejeezus out of my troops as they attacked C. My Tiger would then be unable to help without exposing itself to all sorts of flank and rear shots from any tanks that stayed behind and weasled its way towards the road.

To both of you, I am currently looking to consolidate my Tiger's position with the StuG (and his TC). I think they are then very strong where they are, as far as blunting his attack goes. Apart from that I'm going to move my force in the centre into position to attack C on demand, although always taking my time and allowing him to attack first if he so wishes.

Somehow though I may soon be looking to move a squad into the trees between the road and his armour, if not just to watch where they are then to possibly attempt a close-assault operation or two. Unfortunately I am convinced Juste will have a platoon maintaining a safe perimeter around them. Ahh, I love this sort of thing, lol.

[Tux]

Ok folks, Turn 16:

My StuG has arrived 'on the Tiger's shoulder' and its commander has his binoculars on the edges of the fog 200m ahead:

I took this one too; firstly because I didn't realise how big a StuG was compared to a Tiger, having alway thought of them as kinda small and cute, and secondly because I thought it was quite picturesque with the wheatfield in the background. I think once the sun has burnt off the fog this is going to be a stunning piece of landscape:

My advance along the road is still going smoothly. The enemy sniper made a bastard of himself once more by pot-shotting the Platoon HQ to the right of the road, but on 54s he was spotted and promptly silenced by the squad nearest his patch of trees.

My orders take the second central platoon to the edge of the scattered trees whilst my platoon on the other side of the road secures the flank:

I am considering, once this platoon has reached the scattered trees, moving the platoon that is in overwatch behind them to the area of forest to the left of the road. Their commander has a double stealth bonus and a morale bonus, so I may be able to use them to go tank hunting, should I judge it necessary/ beneficial.

I would also then be able to use my FPz IIIs and their accompanying platoon (with double morale bonus HQ) to assault across the open ground towards C.

[Tux]

Funny how, even with Weather Effects on 'Extreme', visibility actually appears quite good. It's certainly more than 200m anyway! It would add quite a bit to the atmosphere, I think, if they had represented a real 'pea-souper' graphically for these sorts of scenarios.

[Tux]

Turn 17 arrives and is played.

Something bizarre happens in the opening seconds of the turn; my StuG commander spots infantry sauntering through the trees 80m away to the right! My Tiger has a blue cover arc and StuGs always seem reluctant to engage infantry of their own accord, so the contact disappears unmolested:

Next turn I think I may remove the Tiger's arc to allow him to punish Juste for such carelessly un-stealthy troop movements.

On the Road to C, you may have noticed I had a single squad assigned to advance across the road on the way to tree cover. Well, as they did so a solitary burst of SMG fire spattered into the earth around their feet:

The bullets had no effect whatsoever, other than to provide me with this pretty darned conclusive sound contact a few seconds later:

I will now consider the nearest house to the right of the road at C to be occupied. The gunfire that came from it sounded for all the world like PPSh fire, so the unit that occupies that building is either:

1) A squad/ half-squad/ HQ of normal rifle infantry (with at least one SMG amongst them).

2) A squad/ half-squad/ HQ of SMG infantry.

3) A Tank Hunter team.

None of them pose a threat yet, of course. In due course I may use my FPz IIIs to spearhead the assault, torching buildings and risking ATG fire from the flank as they go. If I did that I could either leech another StuG from Hamlet B (by which time I would have to be confident that B wasn't going to be seriously assaulted) and use it to cover the assault from armoured interference, or I could use it to back up my other StuG near A and take my Tiger up to join the assault...

At the moment the latter course of action is ticking the most boxes for me.

[Yushal]

You are hanging tough, but he's got you outnumbered, if not out-gunned, I'm thinking. I'm reminded of that great scene from O Brother, Where Art Thou? in the movie-house where the guy goes "DO NOT SEEK THE TREASURE!"

Good luck!

[Yushal]

Actually, looking again at the lay of avenues for armor movement, my humble and inexperienced advice would be to cease all attacks and concentrate upon the destruction of the enemy, with a view toward winning on points by casualty.

Then again, whats fun about that?!?

[John Kettler]

Tux,

While I think it's great that you've got your StuG in support of your Tiger, you could potentially lose the StuG if the Tiger's hit and K-Killed by that SU-152. At the very least, you're jeopardizing another vital vehicle commander, in that any fire directed at the Tiger stands a good chance of creaming him, especially if it's HE. Recommend you spread out a bit.

Also, despite the thump you took, you're still way ahead on apparent VPs. This means the onus is on your foe to do something about it. That could change in a hurry if he actually seizes the VL from whence you took SMG fire. I think you need to cull his herd a bit before you try anything else major. You have to be judicious, as Yushal pointed out, else may wind up in a deadly ambush.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Heinrich505]

Tux,

I concur with John K. Spread the armor out just a bit. That SU won't have to adjust too much to shoot at both the Tiger and STuG. If they are further apart, the SU has to make a hard choice.

I'm also leaning towards the ambush worry. I don't think that infantry that was spotted was any accident on the part of your opponent. I think it was deliberate, trying to lure you out or cause you to fire, giving away additional positions. He is cagey. I think your approach is cautious enough.

Heinrich505

[Tux]

Well, I appreciate the responses and I have to say I may well be playing naiively here. JK and Heinrich's posts above are not making me feel any better about the orders I just gave my men...

Turn 18 was disrupted after 10s by a 152 shell crashing into the ground just short of one of my houses. The SU has crept almost into LOS and is Area Firing at the ground just short of the building, causing the squad inside to switch to 'Cautious'.

Nothing else worthy of note happens.

I thought long and hard about this one, but reading those posts above, everybody is strongly recommending I don't do what I just did.

I timed the SU and he takes 40 seconds, almost on the dot, to reload and fire each round. The second round he fired was let loose on 54s, and so I judge that I have circa 30s until he is able to return fire. I have (eventually) decided that I want to kill the SU, and I may not get to time my attack on it so cleanly next time. With this in mind both my StuG and my Tiger are motoring forwards a few metres to gain LOS and take out the SU:

Jeez, the more I think about this the worse I feel about the turn I am about to receive... Anyway, my StuG is moving Fast to race through LOS to the sound contact which I detected a couple of turns back rotating towards my Tiger, and then switching to Hunt to break into LOS of the SU. My Tiger is hunting all the way, behind the StuG, so hopefully any enemy threats will be spotted by the StuG a second or two before the Tiger arrives.

I have a full squad moving into the house behind my AFVs to help with spotting when I pull them back next turn, and the squad whose building is looking decidedly shaky on it foundations is sneaking out to wait until they can re-occupy the rubble, or else take up position elsewhere.

Any number of things could go wrong if this is a trap, but I'm hoping boldness is going to pay off.

For the record, I now positively believe that this is a trap - my crews' fates are in their own hands. My Tiger may just be durable enough to survive a first hit from a T-34, but my StuG has his wits and nothing else to rely on now.

Elsewhere I have reached the same conclusion as everyone else appears to have: The attack is on hold. I am moving another squad over to the left to help shore up that forest, but I'm not going to push forwards yet. I don't think the sound contact was an accident either.

So, bold and brilliant or rash and naiive? Either way wish me luck!

[Lanzfeld]

Goog luck!

...and great story telling!! Many thanks.

[Yushal]

Hahahah, this is getting interesting

I like your efforts in the armor stand-off. Good luck!

[Heinrich505]

Tux,

Hey, sometimes you have to be aggressive. It is a Tiger, after all. I like the one-two punch with the StuG moving in to startle, while the Tiger eases up on Hunt. That will mess up the SU a bit, as they try to figure out who to shoot at first. A lot of crazy stuff can happen in those 60 seconds after you hit GO. Those StuG crews can be pretty resourceful. Also, I like your build-up in the woods. I think that will pay dividends. Keep up the good report. I'm enjoying the heck out of it.

Heinrich505

[John Kettler]

Heinrich 505,

It'll be even harder for Ivan to solve the tactical problem if there's significant angular separation between the StuG and the Tiger, forcing the SU to manually traverse (no power assist!) its gun. At this range, it shouldn't take much separation, either.

Tux,

Dying for that vital next turn! What happened?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Tux]

Waiting on Juste's response atm. We have had some problems getting the file he sends to open properly on my PC (see Tech Forum). I have reinstalled the game etc. so hopefully when he sends the file again it'll work.