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General Rambo

Right, most of the uncles I had who fought in either the Atlantic or the Pacific Theaters, refused to discuss it. If they did it was only to talk about good times they had but not about battle. Naturally, if they'd been asked to tell about it by an historian or for a documentary I'm sure they would have.

Don't forget, your uncle who was a POW probably dealt only with Nazis; of course he'd have nothing good to say about Germans, to him they were one and the same, but they weren't and aren't.

One of my uncles came home a basket case. He didn't start acting reasonably normal till the early fifties. He was in all the campaigns from Tunisia right up till the end and was a tech (or platoon, not quite sure) seargeant (five stripes).

What put him over the edge happened during the last few days of the war in Central Germany. He tossed some grenades into a small house that he thought was being held be fanatical SS. The door opened and a kid in a baggy SS uniform came out and died in his arms. He went inside and the room was filled with dying Hitler Youth and at least two others died with him holding them trying to save their lives. This guy was already a war hero and what put him over the edge was the thought of having killed a dozen children.

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What put him over the edge...
Without doubt, that kind of thing would have done the same to me.

Thanks again JJ, for all these great stories and anecdotes. :cool:

No wonder to me that "the naked city" provides so much insight and inspiration for a Writer, as you yourself surely are... in all your travails and travels (... and, ecstasies as well) you have done a seriously great thing... remembered them.

Thereby honoring the people, yet here or gone, and the times, and that terrific city itself.

I salute you. smile.gif

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Sir Jersey --- The dislike for Germans by my Uncle K. is more than just his experience in the Battle of the Atlantic (murderous killing of the escaping sailors after the ship was down). His Dad (my GrandDad), fought in World War #1, & would always say,"Does every generation gotta fight Germans?, what's wrong with those people?". My GrandDad was sent over as a young man & "didn't have a happy experience" with the German people.

I know what you mean by "Nazi" & "German", but at that point in history, political opinion polls with the family really isn't a concern. GrandDad & Uncle K. dislike Germans & Nazis.

Germans should be glad they surrendered, I'm sure they were a candidate for a "Fatty".

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General Rambo

Even without a fatty Germany was a wreck in 1945, even worse than the rest of Europe except, possibly, European Russia. There were U. S. plans to us A-bombs on Germany but they were only in the very speculative early planning stages. The USAF also had plans for the next super bomber beyond the B-29 but they were dropped when Germany surrendered and it was evident that Japan would eventually lose against the forces already in existence.

In a sense WWII was a continuation of WWI the same way the Second Punic War between Carthage and Rome was an inevitable contination of the First. And in that example the Third part resulted in the total destruction of one side (Carthage), which a lot of people wanted to do with Germany when World War Two ended.

Hating or not hating the German people is a tough call. I never feel animosity toward any nationality because, to me, it's only their leaders who get to make the decisions, not the general population. If your country is at war, you fight in it.

There are many instances of excessive murdering tactics on both sides. True, much more so on the part of the Germans and Japanese (Italy almost none but the USSR fully as much as the Germans). An instance of the United States doing it was in the 1942 Battle of the Bismarck Sea when Japanese transports were sunk and anything could fly was sent out to straff the water to make sure that no living Japanese troops drifted ashore. I think this would be considered a war crime by anyone's definition. According to American air crews the water was chummed red.

I agree with what you said before about the kind of people drawn to skinhead movements and similar organizations. Yes, except for the complete idiots they've got to realize that the concentration camps were for real. Most of them say the camps existed but there weren't any gas chambers or executions and the photos of corpses were all propaganda props. As you said, it's insane to even attempt to discuss it with them.

Curry

Regarding what we were talking about earlier, I wonder when this reinventing of history and forgetting of the actual situation started?

I can't remember when the crowd came along that began saying Allied victory in WWII was a given. Was it twenty years ago? Ten? At any rate they seem to be pretty solidly embedded in today's society. Most people born the last thirty or so years are only vaguely aware of WWII, so I guess those who have reinvented it are at least a level above the others.

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Touching stories from JJ. I can definitevly say that WW1 and WW2 has personally effected my personal life. More so than most here under the age of 30. The damage that was done upon my family has taken Generations to repair. My Forefathers never spoke much of their experiences but they were awful. I will be the first Generation hopefully to conquor the Evil. Not really fully American here, So I can speak from the English and American side. Even a strong German Streak in me to understand their side of the story. Few sides are right

I like these interesting questions of Morality. War is Morale? 1 of my Great Great Great Grand Fathers would've been a Yankee fighting the South another a Prussian fighting the French. War in history goes back for milleniums. Germans were close in WW1-WW2 to ending the War and conquoring the World. On the gates of Moscow, on the gates of Leningrad and inside Stalingrade. The Only real competition on Land was nearly smashed and a miracle and gift from above is definitely what granted the Allies salvation! For their foolish ill preparation.

Just as JJ mentioned about Carthage War leads to more War, Hannibal walked into Italian Pennisula and knocked them all out, then the Romans switched strategies, they stayed behind their walls and let him run out of gas. Not unlike the Russians, fall back, give land cause we can afford 'time'.. War wasn't always won by pure Might, the Germans never understood this, and oddly enough they're now more Economically Wealthy than Britian, France or USSR their former enemies. They finally took a different route I suppose? Trading Empire, is right? Should we punish them, hell, we could punish everyone! The World is full of Spite, Hate, Atrocity!

One thing is certian War<is a vampire> Is Immortal<And we are not!>

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Liam

Very interesting points.

I can easily imagine British, French, Russian and German families, in addition to those of many other nations, being mauled for several generations to come. Yes, of course, one war always leads to another. I doubt humanity ever understood that lesson; the only deterrent turned out to be the likelihood of annihliation through Nuclear warfare.

Regarding the German economy, in many ways they're in the same position the Kaiser's Germany had held prior to World War One. At that time Germany was, economically, much stronger than it ever became under the nazis.

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John:

Up until 1933<Discovery Channel Sources> The Germans had most of the Scientific Breakthroughs in the World. Prussia and the forming of Germany was done in record time IMO. They came out of small states and formed a great empire, and should've just got rid of the arms race and went about things with politics.

All the Old Monarchs were related, they were very poor administators, one thing that stands out in all the History books.

I read an article<not sure if it was Time> was about German Nationailism, they say it's not dead. They watched how 2 World Wars failed and how France and Britian mantained supremacy via Economics. Some say that's what's happening now. Look at how many Companies are now owned by Germany? It's quite amazing. You wouldn't even know. They claim in the future another rise of their spirit to some sort world dominance. Think a little bit of wishful thinking, but oddly enough you see how other Nations shrunk their borders up, forced their ethnic group into a smaller region... to make sure that would be a difficult thing. I personally think the Germans are through. French have more Armament

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Liam:

Why do you think that German, at present, are different than other nations? You say that they want to build an imperium based on economy and you say that they have a lot of big companies.

But this is common to other countries like France, Britain... China (China will rise more than Europe or USA in the next years) or USA.

Our lives is determined (more or less) by economics... Compaines try to rise to get bigger and bigger... German companies, French companies... and so on.

People (companies) try to earn more and more money each year and that´s the reason why they try to expand its size.

But this is common for all countries - companies(except North Korea was an exception... ;) ), isn´t it?

German people are people who likes work hard... like Britain USA... Spanish people doesn´t like ;) Then, these countries (by this reason and by other ones) have a better economy and then they have big corporations.

On the other hand i hope that your fatal predictions about future masive wars were only predictions and not realities.

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Liam

Good point about the Monarchs, as a rule, being lousy administrators. The idea was, by the late 19th century, most of them were related and could settle things through personal exchanges rather than wars.

On the brink of mobilization and war, Nicholas and his cousin Wilhelm sent a series of telegrams back and forth, in English, that have come to be known as The Nicky-Willlie exchanges. At the end of it, neither being able to alter the slide into all out war, Nicholas told an aid, "Grandma-ma (Queen Victoria) would never have permitted this to happen."

Wilhelm II's Germany in 1914 was probably the most powerful nation on earth and that was with her colonies only beginning to develop.

Prussia's creation of the German Empire during the middle and late ninteenth century was an interesting mix of diplomacy backed by a powerful military, and the realization of something that was all but inevitable. Napoleon created two quasi nations, The Confederation of the Rhine and The Grand Duchy of Warsaw. The first indicated that the days of Germany consisting of a group of loosely joined states was quickly coming to an end.

The missing element was the diplomatic brilliance of Bismarck. In a decade Prussia defeated Austria, Denmark and France in quick wars and each case Bismarck left the vanquished enemy intact, settling for lands that could be legitimately considered German. Wilhelm II made a fatal blunder by sacking the Iron Duke and changing Germany's course with an immediate mistake, that of building a large modern battle fleet that could only be seen by Britain as a direct threat.

There's no doubt that if the new Germany Empire had followed peaceful economic growth, instead of flexing it's military might, it would have far outdistanced all of it's competitors by the 1920s and afterwards a general European war would have been a moot point.

I don't agree that there will be a likely time of German militaristic resurgence. It would be pointless, both France, Britain and Russia all have nuclear arsenals and the physical occupation of another nation, especially an already developed one such as those surrounding Germany, hardly gains any advantage that can't be gained through normal trade agreements. If those same three nations had weapons of total destruction in 1939, I think there can be little doubt that even Hitler himself would have chosen a different path.

DAK_21PzDivision

I agree with what you'd said about means of dominence in the future. Warfare among major nations would, inevitably, spiral into nuclear warfare.

Along those lines, it isn't Europe that concerns me but countries like India and Pakistan and North Korea and China. When nuclear powers are also close neighbors the chance of an accidental annihliation becomes many times greater than it ever was when it was only the United States and the Soviet Union eye-balling each other.

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The days of Nationalism are over, Germany is done, put a fork in them. They have resolved to be just another country with some companies. The Fatherland won't be doing squat militarily. The world got sick of their crap & firebombed them once & for all. The masterace lost to Jesse Owens, FDR, General Motors, the RAF, & got raped by Mother Russia.

The next step for this world will happen like this:

1) World economies continue to intermingle.

2) Some terrorist group will deliver WMD to some major city killing millions.

3) New World Order will be formed to deal with the world's problems...terrorism, pollution, oil, disease, etc.

4) Things will get a little rough, lack of trust between major nations.

5) An Anti-Christ will step on the scene.

6) Rapture

7) 200,000,000 men army will march from the Kings of the East (China & India) to attack Israel.

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Brother Rambo

We agree on points 1 - 4.

I have to stop short of 5 & 6 but they wouldn't surprise me, either.

Point number 3, a terrorist group getting and using a serious WMD on a large population area is, to me, an outright certainty. If they're determined enough and have any brains at all there will be no way to prevent them from doing it.

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Sir Jersey --- We live in interesting times in the History of mankind...eyeglasses, ice cream, air conditioning, cars, computers, etc.

What does the world want? It wants "peace on Earth" which it cannot achieve on it's own. The World is prime for "an Anti-Christ". Adolf Hitler was a very small form on one.

It's kind of like the world "is due" for some "big event" to happen. It's weird, I can kind of feel like something big is going to happen. People want & need alternatives to the ways things are going. It wouldn't surprise me a bit to turn on the T.V., see some City destroyed, then days later seeing some dude in the Middle East doing a bunch of "signs, wonders, & miracles".

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Brother Rambo

Yes, we've got exactly the same feeling on this. I look across the harbor and see Manhattan. I saw the Towers tumbling from a beach a few minutes walk from my house. Seeing that cloud of ugly smoke covering most of Manhattan, drifting lazily east toward Long Island, was an incredible and horrible experience. It reminded me of footage from World War II that I'd seen.

Except this wasn't London in the Blitz or any other city devastated in a war, it was literally the center of the world's trading network destroyed on a beautiful sunny day and in a time of peace! That first day and night they were speculating on tens of thousands of victims. The final figure of about three thousand was much lower than anyone had hoped for.

I've been surprised every day since then to look north and not see NYC in ruins. If that happened, and it was from a WMD, I would probably be incinerated as well, so that particular sight is, understandably, a constant relief for me.

None of these thoughts makes me fear for myself, though I'm not particularly religious. It gives me fear for all of mankind. Unimaginable though such a deed appears, it's much easier to perform the tragic attack than to calculate the effects of the reaction.

Once it begins in earnest, the taking of an eye begins to be met, in nuclear terms, with the taking another's eye, the result could very well fulfill J. Robert Openheimer's famous quote as he watched the Trinity test in 1945:

Recalling the scene, Oppenheimer said: "A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. There floated through my mind a line from the "Bhagavad-Gita" in which Krishna is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty: "I am become death: the destroyer of worlds."

Above passage was gotten from the link below:

< Good Article on J. Robert Oppenheimer >

[ August 24, 2004, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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Sir Jersey --- You & I are actually very similar people in many respects. We remember our childhood days like they are yesterday. It wasn't that long ago that my priorities were of a kid living in the book "To Kill a Mocking Bird" like Gem & Scout. I remember collecting the Topps All-Star cards, playing baseball everyday, building treeforts, riding my Schwinn bike to 7-11 for a slurpee, just to collect Mike Schmidt on the cup smile.gif

I grew up in a rather protective enviornment. Rules were their to guide, not imprision. My parents were like Howard & Marion on Happy Days. I was taught to respect elders, the flag, & put Faith in the finished works of J.C. I was very fortunate to be taught the love of God, not the rules of men, by my parents.

My college days was a real eye awakening, I began to see the troubles people have, which they do to themselves. My hereos were no longer heroes. I learned by experience to be careful of who to trust. The business world showed me greed of people. Those who cut corners got ahead (from the scriptures,"Why do the evil prosper?"), I couldn't understand. I always go back to things that I believe in, trust, & can identify with. I love the saving grace of Jesus Christ, wargames, baseball, family, food, & a cold brew once in awhile...and of course ice cream. I'm a dairy product fanatic: cheese, yogart, ice cream, cheese & milk smile.gif

The fact you say "you're not religous", well, that's probably because of your experiences. The fact you grew up in the Eastern Big City, well, I'm not surprised you're not "into church". But that is a good thing smile.gif God is the creator, the substainer of life. God isn't a walking taskmaster waiting to hit you over the head with a hammer. Sure He has regulations, just like man, we are made in His image. But God offers hope of eternal life.

Far as 9/11 and the world trade centers. That was one crazy month. I stared at the television & watched those planes crash...over & over & over & over & over & over again. We got Pearl Harbored & you were sitting on Jersey shore.

My hat is off to you for in living in Jersey! That would drive me nuts! I visiting D.C., Philly, & Boston...and absolutely hated it. I'm more of a hick with a college degree, 9mm Sig Sauer, & a Bible.

I like to chill out, you'd like my place. I've got the Direct TV w/ Major League Baseball package. There's nothing like those ESPN games in High Definition. The best player in the last 30 years is Barry Bonds. The next best hitters are Albert Puljos, Scott Rolen, & Ichiro. The Cubs have a good staff, but are in a battle just to make the playoffs for the wildcard spot.

My new lady & I are hitting it off. The ladies want to marry the Legend, maybe this is the one? She's a hottie from 'Nam smile.gif

I picture you with history books in hand, logged into the Writing Club, while hearing your Lady cry out,"Get off the computer, we gotta do some errand crap".

We both have tasted the American life, both the good & the bad. Sadly enough, we see the destruction coming. Politicians are mad, all of them. The money & power is too much. Judges are lost & don't know what justice is. Senators are more concerned with their hairspray for the camera. Meanwhile, the security borders are a joke, jobs are gone (ones that actually pay) to India, & there's no roadmap for internal matters (roads, infrastructure, economy, energy, etc.).

The United States has gotten itself into one big hurry, military overextended, & unsure of direction. I prefer the isolationism of George Washington, the Union of Abe, the Big Stick of Teddy, the New Deal of FDR, & the Tear Down the Wall attitude of Reagan.

John Kerry is just a spoiled little brat pinko who married a rich lost soul. George is a guy who was happier on the bottle.

Anyhow...just ranting.

Best wishes from the West Coast >>> Rambo OUT

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Rambo, Interesting! You've got a character and opinion that is hardcore and not entirely off what is possible! An AntiChrist if he does come in the future will not be recognized until it's far too late. Say I was a Russian Diplomatic sort, 25, great Promise and Billions.. Made my fortune on trafficing Pretty young Girls to the USA and Western World. Expanded into developing my Nations vast Oil Supplies. Next thing you know I'm King Cobra of Russia, I start buying up the Goverment. I buy the People's Vote, everyone Loveths Me. I am the Man! Next thing is people don't know is my deranged Vision of Granduer. I am bored with my Money, every Woman wants me, Every one in my Nations is afraid to oppose me. No I'm not the type of Guy that sticks out so far that I'm overly noticed, the West just Thinks I'm a ex-dirty businessman moved into the Political sector looking for Power and Advancement like many of them! <remind you of JFK's Dad> Then from there, I start having visions, that I will be Rule the Earth but first I must create a bunch of Nukes underground, a New type of Nuke that is superior to the West. I revamp my Russian Economy, I infest the World with my Oil<as the MiddleEastern Supply is dead> I build secretly underground 10 Xs the Nuke Arsenal of the West, I even buy Anti-Nuke Technology but the West is sleeping chasing around Diaper Heads in the Desert. Remebering the Good Ole days when I was boy and watching Western Movies and the fact my Old Man died rotting in a American Jail, missing the Good Ole Days I decide to lauch a Total Strike against all Nations considered a Threat to the Newly Formed Russian Union. China jumps on board and becomes my Bish, so does Europe. USA is toast as I burn them down to the ground before they ever notice..

Hopefully Some guys in the USA are still looking in that direction. AND the above is True for China or the Middleast<but they don't seem to have the capability that Russia or China has at this time>

As far as Western Europe, they're too small and too obscure to do anything but whine IMO

My Opinion of a Reality Dictator

As far as a WMD comming in the Mail, way before anyone saw the Two Towers comming down they spoke of the infamous Suitcase Bomb, and we all know it's possible. We all know that there are Fanatical Muslims looking to Destroy us. All they need is time, money and luck and some of us will die, that's true but ultimately the reprisals will be Death for Tens of thousands of their people. The hatred in America will spread like a plague, every Mosque, every Muslim will be blacklisted and Lynched. It'll be a scene out of the early years of American History. There will be a No Arab Tolerance Level for US Foreign Policy. We'll give the Ireali extremists the freeway and Backing to Destroy the Palestinian Movement. We'll build up a Internal Security Force the size of our Army<is why we have a threat anyways, noone is spending money on REAL DEFENSE> The USA will stick their tongue out at the rest of the World......and finally if a Bomb does go, hopefully it hits a Euro too, so they realize they're next <as after these fanatics can nolonger hit us, they'll hit what resembles us and that is naturally Europeans or Christians Worldwide>

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Hmm, you guys have gotten me to reread the Book of Daniel, great stuff.

"And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people. He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time. And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him. Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain. And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed. Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land. At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

etc, etc, etc...

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If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

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Well, I'm not a Bible Man really but the basic philosphy exists in most belief systems and religions. A bad, an overly destructive force, an evil that you cannot explain away with some fancy philosphical MidLevel College crap. Nothing all out of the ordinary, omnipotent, nothing more than the hatred, greed, and petty heart of Man. Failable, selfish, cruel, hateful. His worst Emotions amplified to cause pain and death. You can go on, you can bypass it all and just say "Evil" as a loose term refering to Hell on Earth for Most of Mankind. As we sit here in our comfort and speak of History and Possible Outcomes, there are Millions starving and suffering. Our ears are deaf, what is I usually hear, "Oh, if you feed those people, then tomorrow they'll have 5Xs the kids to feed. Then I hear from another source, "Well, we need to train them to work their fields, become productive, take care of their own." I'm not really helping that part along, hypocritical but the right method along with the first. A happy Medium is what I speak of...

On the same coin around the World, Madman arise and so do more Secretive, Clever, Sinister creates<i.e. Adolf Hitler is a shining example, had he died in 1930 he would've been considered one of Germany's greatest Politicians> The World is full of Hitlers and Stalins and other Nameless sorts. Hopefully we shall have Churchills and FDRs and not Chamberlains and the such<even though the meek play their part too> We need Heroes, we need Knights, we need Good/God/Bravery in whatever Religion and language to challenge the forces of Evil<bad men> and vanquish them to the NetherWorlds...

If you don't believe in the concept, re-examine your life experiences and of those around you. You've likely not been touched by anything of 'grave importance' so do prefer to be the simpleton.. But in this World of ours, it takes all types I suppose ;) and that my friends is the bottomline<for better or worse>

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I suspect that TS Eliot's Hollow Man

Had it about right...

This World shall end

Not with a... Bang!

But,

With... a whimper.

I can just hear that ensuing en masse

Middle-Class simpering now,

As the black soot settles 'round... O!

Why O why! did I EVER believe

That Dumb-ass American Mass Media,

That Souless,

Corporate-Conglomerate controlled,

Celebrity silly,

Useless things be-shilling,

Bread & Circus instilling,

American (Huddled Mass) Media.

Alas,

Why, at last... it's my own!

MOTE-muddled eyes!

That's got me so

Flim-flam befuddled! ;)

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Brother Rambo

Appreciate that post a few up and there is indeed a lot of truth to it.

I know marriage and kids isn't something you've got on the immediate agenda but I can say the only regret I've got at this point is not having had any kids. As you know from The Writing Club I've become a sort of elder uncle to the two kids across the street and, to be honest, in a lot of ways I wish they were ours. So, the only response I can give to that post is to say I think you're the kind of man who should, at some point, get married and raise a family. Maybe not right away, but before you're too old to really enjoy raising them.

Yes, I'm sure I'd like your new place, it sounds great with the five acres and all the trimmings -- here's hoping your winters aren't overly severe.

One of the reasons I never made kids a priority is the gloomy view of humanity's future that we both share. It's something to consider, of course, but some people, in my opinion, should be building tomorrow and, also in my opinion of course, you're one of them. You've got beliefs and positive values and any child, especially a boy, would have a great time being your son, I'm sure of that -- imagine the really great baseball player you'd help mould! And you enjoy passing your skills along, just as I've been enjoying that with the local kids. smile.gif

Liam, Desert Dave

Can't offer much that the two of you and Rambo haven't already said but I'm finding all of that very interesting.

The going out with a whimper vision is, of course, exactly as frightening as going out with a bang. And just as likely.

There's always that middle ground where the human race gets past all of this and solves it's problems and endures, spreading thoughout the galaxy over the next thousands of years. It's no more far fetched a likelihood as landing on the moon would have been to the Phoenicians. ;)

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Hey John,

I just had to comment. Kids, whoa! ::Spins in a swirling headache:: I think they're Great, and they're our tomorrow! I refuse to have that responsability though, that burden is for those who wish it, I'm not one of them. Dirty Diapers, 3 AM - 4 AM, 12 years old, "Joey beat me up Daddy! Go get him and get his Dady!" 16, "Cindy is preg Man, what am I going to do?" 25, "Lordy, a job, what's that?" Heh!!!

ROFL

You can also get the Star Quaterback or the History Proffessor or just a cool person who you can fish with! Things turn out all ways. I'm just mortified of all the "Energy" one has to dedicate to a Child. You could literally become a Psychologist with that amount of time, and put in 10 years of practice, buy a home and save 20-30 Troubled Teens if you were halfway proficient in your job and contribute to society in some other fashion ;)

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