AAR "Limit" Game: Shaka (Axis) vs Oak (Allies)

[Oak]

March 8, 1942

In the east ... German troops pull away from the northern line. There is not an Axis troop to be seen north of the line from Konigsberg to Minsk. One Russia corps was killed and an army severely damaged, but the Russian line holds and is reinforced.

On the southern frontier, a 2nd Italian army helps with the attack on the Russian corps guarding the border. On the northern frontier, the Russian fleet finds a German sub and cruiser near Stockholm. German sub now at 6, with 1 Russian cruiser now at 5 and the other at 10.

In the west ... Brest is attacked and 2 German armies killed (one in Brest and one next to it). Free French army lands 2 hexes from Brest and finishes off the 2nd army. Bergen port is bombed and the army in Bergen bombarded.

In the Med ... the German rocket is moved out of Sicily to parts unknown. Italian air moved from Algiers to Palermo. Malta air is reinforced. Italian sub is attacked by Gibraltar air and then by the US battleship that killed the cruiser. The sub is killed with no damage to Allied forces.

Partisans appear in Yugoslavia and head for the hills. UK air now at level 2.

[Shaka of Carthage]

March 22, 1942

Major setback in France. 6th and 4th Armies have ceased to function as combat formations, under massive naval and aerial attacks. Free French forces, acting as mercenaries for the British, landed and captured some German POWs. XXIII Corps and X Volksgrndr have been rushed to fill the defensive positions that 6th and 4th Armies occupied.

Army Group Afrika continues its fighting with the Russian forces over control of the mountain passes.

Scharnhorst CABG and U-47 submarine pack sink a Russian cruiser battle group. One still remains at full strength.

Security units engage another Yugo partisan faction operating in the mountains.

Army Group Central eliminates a Russian Army.

[Oak]

April 5

Things are really starting to get interesting. Lots of action everywhere.

In the west ... Germany moves 3 corps and 1 army to the region around Brest, along with 2 air put near Bordeaux. Air, battleship and carrier attacks kill the corps in Brest. German air intercepts attacks by UK and USA air. American transports swarm around northern France and the Lowlands. Bergen port and city bombed and bombarded.

In the Med ... Axis moves 1 German air, 2 Italian air (still at jet tech 0) and Guzzani HQ to Algiers. We believe the Rundstedt HQ is there as well. 2 Italian battleships attack the US battleship (USS Alabama) that has been sinking all those other Italian ships. A UK and USA battleship join the counter-attack, sinking both Italian battleships. Italy's navy now consists of a single battleship. Near Algiers, the Allies have the Alabama (at 1), the Massachusetts (at 9) and the Valiant (also at 9).

In the east ... a fresh corps takes over guarding the Iraq border. Although the German tank is still there, its HQ support operated away. The German cruiser and sub sink one Russian cruiser, and the other moves away.

The slight damage done to the Russian line is repaired and the line is further reinforced. The Axis continues to have no forces in sight north of the Konigsberg-Minsk line. The Germany rocket division appears near Odessa.

Yugo partisans dig in. And, according to reports, either Germany has some transports in the water or it has been building ships.

[Shaka of Carthage]

April 19, 1942

North of Algeria, one US BBBG is sunk. Massachusetts BBBG is reduced to str 4, Valiant BBBG is reduced to str 3. The Regia Navale (Italian Navy) is but a shell of its former self, even more embarressed since the main damage to the Allied ships was done by I Aero, II Aero and a Luft Air unit. The Royal Yachts are being outfitted for combat.

Newly formed Army Group West assumes the defense of France. 11th Army, I Field Luft Corps and X Volksgrndr Corps attack the 3rd Army (Free French), reducing it to str 1. VII Corps has been placed into the Brest meat grinder.

Security units eliminate the Yugo Partisan faction.

Army Group South receives a rocket detachment, which is put to use against Odessa. AG South and Central continue the slogging match against the Russians.

Gneisenau CABG and Scharnhorst CABG attack the Marat CABG (Russ) holed up in Kronstadt port.

[Oak]

May 3

In the Med ... Alabama sunk by Axis, and the last Italian battleship is then sunk by the Allies. The 2 battleships in the Med will likely be sunk next turn by Axis air, but the elimination of the Italian fleet was worth it.

In the west ... Allied forces move away from Brest, although US transports are still looking for landing opportunities across the European coast.

In the east ... one of the German cruisers attacking the remaining Russian cruiser is sunk by combined air and sea assault. In the process, the Axis learn that USSR is at level 2 jet. They also learn that USSR troops are at level 1 anti-tank when the frontline troops are reinforced to 11.

A Russian corps is sent on a scouting mission across the no-man's land north of the Konigsberg-Minsk line, and finds that the German northern front consists of 2 armies and the Kesselring HQ, all behind the German border. Russian forces in the north move aggressively westward.

No sign of German air this turn, other than the attack in the Med by the air fleet near Algiers. No Axis air attacks on the Russian front.

[Shaka of Carthage]

May 17, 1942

I Aero (Itl), II Aero (Itl) and Luft II (Ge) sink the American and British BBBGs north of Algeria.

Army Group West eliminates last of the Free French Army east of Brest.

Army Group North eliminates a probing Russian Army.

Army Group Central and South continue the attrition war against the Russians. AG Central breaks a Russian Shock Army.

PS...

This would be a good place to point out some of the issues with SC (ie how to turn the Greys into Germans). Some can be fixed by modifying the campaign, some require system changes. This is related within the context of a "limit" game. "No limit" games address the problems other ways.

German units need experience upon initial setup to properly reflect Eastern front combat.

German and Russian Armor units should have a tech advantage over everyone else.

Without those two advantages, the Eastern front quickly becomes an attrition war. If it happens too soon, Axis are in trouble unless the Allies make some mistakes.

The experience can be solved by modifying the campaign setup. While two (2) bars would be correct, because of the way combat is resolved, its too much. Will have to make do with one (1) bar for the Germans and some of the British units.

The armor issue depends on your viewpoint. Russia should be +1 over the Germans. Everyone else, with the possible exception of the US, should be worse than the Germans. One could make the point that by giving Russia the tech upon setup, it forces the Germans to invest in Heavy Tank tech. Maybe thats the intent. Neither method solves the problem with the Heavy Tank tech bonuses having no effect on soft combat. There are numerous threads discussing this issue.

[ August 18, 2003, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[Oak]

May 31

In the Med ... the 2 Allied battleships were sunk as expected. Otherwise, all quiet in the Med. Rundstedt HQ is operated back to Iraq.

In the east ... the Russian line is reinforced in the south. In the north, the Russian line moves aggressively east after having moved aggressively west last turn.

In the west ... 2 UK and 2 US air attack a German army and corps on the north coast of France. Only one air interception by the Germans, meaning that the Axis have moved an air fleet out of France. US transports still roaming the coasts of northern Europe and now Norway. Germany army in Bergen is bombarded and knocked down to 9.

Italian air is now at jet level 1.

[Shaka of Carthage]

June 14, 1942

Army Group West reports that other than air strikes from the UK, all is quiet. American transports scout the coastline of the continent as well as deploying for a possible landing in Norway.

Army Group North reports the Russians have withdrawn.

Army Group Central and South report continued fighting along the Eastern front with the Russians. Italian units relive Romaninan units, and do quite poorly.

Army Group Afrika is still contesting for control over the mountain passes.

In a stunning blow to the Italian aircraft industry, the Italian Air Force has licensed and started producing He112s. These were a German design rejected in favor of the Me109s. Citing reports that they are a better dogfighter than the Me109, the announcement has put the Italian aircraft industry into a frenzy, since it is no longer business as usual. Though they were technologically leaders in the 30's, the Italian Aircraft industry is no longer state of the art. This annoucnement confirms it.

[Oak]

June 21

A quiet couple of turns.

In the east ... the Manstein HQ is attacked by Russian air, with German air intercepting. Germany is now at jet tech 3. The Russian army in Odessa attacks and kills the Italian army southwest of it (the Italian army was at str 4 and the Odessa army had HQ support). A Russian tank moves into the empty spot and attacks the German rocket division, knocking it down to str 6.

In the west ... German troops cover the spots were US transports were planning to land ... so they look elsewhere. Allied air is quiet. Most of the Axis air is out of sight and in unknown locations, so the Allied air remains cautious.

Reports indicate a German naval build-up. We suspect that this indicates either that Germany is building subs for Atlantic raiding or that there are transports on their way to North America. The Allied fleet goes on the alert, determined to find and kills any German subs or transports in the Atlantic.

[Shaka of Carthage]

June 28, 1942 (?)

Newly arrived 10th Army (Itl), which sufferred losses as it took its place in the front lines, has been broken and overrun by the 1st Guards Tank. Army Group South has had to recall the 1st Army (Romanians) and call up 1st Army (Itl) to try and plug the gap. The Rocket division stood its ground, taking losses from the 1st Guards, but was able to inflict losses on the Russians as they fought the recalled units. Italian air and Luft air also was called in, but even so, the 1st Guards are still holding thier positions.

Italian submarine pack sinks British merchants in the Med (5 MPPs).

[Oak]

July 5, 1942

In the east ... the Russian tank retreats after being attacked by 2 German air, 1 Italian air, assorted Axis armies and the rocket division. Russian line is attacked, with the Russians mostly giving as good as they take. Rommel HQ is attacked by Russian air, with interception by German air. Russian line is reinforced, revealing that USSR is at anti-tank level 2.

In the west ... Brest is bombed with interception by German air and escort by UK air. Brussels is attacked, confirming that that is only one Axis air in France. One German air and one Italian air are unaccounted for. Free French cruiser bombards Brussels, fearing that one of the Axis air is now in Norway. US transports continue exploring the coast of northern Europe, while a Free French army transport arrives next to Brest.

In the Med ... the theory that the Axis are building subs proves to be at least partially correct, with an Italian sub now raiding. Guzzoni moves to the southern tip of Sicily and dares the air in Malta to attack him, even sticking out his tongue at the Free French pilots. The pilots ignore Guzzoni and break out a nice bottle of wine.

[Shaka of Carthage]

July 12, 1942

All of the German Army Groups use this time to rest and receive replacements.

I Aero (Itl) launches a strike against the Russian Konev HQs. 1st Red Air Fleet flies an interception mission while the strikes take place on the HQ.

Italian submarine pack sinks British Merchant ships in the Med (5 MPPs).

[Amona]

Regarding Shakas thoughts on the game:

(If it is not okay to interrupt your AAR here I can open a new thread)

Generally I think limits or force pools are a very good solution to some of the problems. I just think that the limits in this game of yours here are not good ones.

4 airfleets for Germany is not enough to have a chance. What about 8 for Germany, US and UK?

This gives Germany a powerfull airfleet in the early stages of the game, enough to help with breakthroughs in the East to avoid attrition war there, and on the other hand allows the Western Allies to win the air war in the West after 1942 or so. NUmbers for other nations: USSR 6, Italy 2, France 2.

I would make it that the limit refers to all air units, so 8 is the number of airfleets and bombers combined. What about that?

Regarding tanks: Why give techadvances there for free?

It would be interesting if Germany had to decide if to invest in Jetresearch or heavy tanks. You need a strong tank force to avoid attrition war in the East, so, why not investing in tanks instead of Jetresearch? Your experienced German air units can, at least in the East, make up for possible russian jetresearch.

It would add spice to the game if Germany had to decide which research to favor.

For a new try to design a balanced game (probably the 115th ) see my AAR with Jersey John and the rules and modifications stated there in my first entry.

Surely it need not be as complicated as that, but the air limit for starters should change the game quite a bit.

Your 4-air limit for Germany unbalances game towards Allies in my opinion.

At last: I really enjoy reading your and Oaks AARs, keep that going.

[Oak]

July 19, 1942

In the east ... the German army northwest of Odessa (at str 7) is killed after attacks by 2 Russian armies. Russian air attacks Rommel again, with German air again intercepting. Russian line reinforced.

In the west ... all is quiet. No air attacks by the Allies (all Axis forces in range are in cities). Allied transports continue to roam the European coast, but it is becoming clear that Europe is being garrisoned by the Axis

Brussels bombarded again by Free French cruiser, without effect.

Partisans appear again in Yugoslavia.

[Shaka of Carthage]

I don't mind the interruption, I'm sure Oak doesn't either.

The unit limitations are based on the actual number of combat divisions each nation had at a specific point, as well as an allowance for what could have been raised historically. That is also how I arrived at the limits on the air units. I'm sorry, but Germany just could not have raised 8,000 fighter, fighter/bomber and dive bomber type aircraft.

You're repeating the same mistake that others do in regards to SC. You need a way to bust thru the enemy line, you use Air to do that, hence you want enough to be able to achieve a breakthrough. The breakthroughs in the east were not accomplished by air power destroying units. Its a complex problem in SC, since we can create "instant units", so given enough MPPs, Russia will end up with a coast to coast line of units.

I didn't bother to limit the strategic bombers for the Allies, because I have yet to play or hear about a game where the Allied player bought anywhere near the historical numbers of strategic bombers. Players just don't do that in SC. At some point, UK and US should have around eight (8) strategic bombers between the two of them. It could even be more, depending on how you interpet the historical numbers. No one does that. I think the ease of doing amphib invasions indirectly causes people to avoid the strategic bombers.

I agree with the statement about giving heavy tank tech advances for free. Its the same problem I have with the Allies not using strategic bombers. It just doesn't feel like WWII, because every SC player will put MPPs into Air, since its the most powerful unit in the game. So the Armor and Strat Bombers get shorted. Yet, the Russians get the bonus to represent the T-34, which technically was not the majority Russian tank at the time of Barbarossa. How many Axis players have eight (8) Panzer units at the time of Barbarossa? Out of a total of 32 units, thats how many should be Panzers. But everyone has either played in a game or heard of one, where the Axis have eight (8) Air units at Barbarossa. I go back and forth on how to handle the issue all the time.

I am reading the AAR between yourself and JerseyJohn. I have also read the modifications you are using. I try and understand the reasoning behind all the different modifications people make, to understand what the effects they are after. I "borrow" other peoples ideas all the time if it gives the effect I am after.

The four (4) German limit on Air being unbalanced in favor of the Allies is really based on another issue. Carriers. At the moment, I've concluded that the two carriers in the North Atlantic, should be replaced with battleships and UK given an additional strategic bomber. The carrier in the Med would stay. Then that brings up the next major issue, amphib invasions. If you look at the newbie sticky thread, you'll see how I think that should be solved.

[ August 19, 2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[Amona]

Shaka, certainly you are right about the number of German operational aircraft. Thats the problem in putting historical accuracy against playability. I think you are leaning to have on Accuracy, at least in repect to units.

The Germans had six airfleets numbered, plus Luftflotte REICH, plus additional smaller formations. Oh, yes , I know, L V was in Norway and never was as strong as the other fleets, but if we start a discussion in such deatail... oh my.

I am certainly not making the mistake so many players make in trying to break through with airfleets help in the East (you know, the boring thing I encountered far to often when SC was young, 3 rows of russian corps against 20 plus german airfleets.

Hell no. As the Germans, you need tanks in the East most of all. Dont let Russians build a defense line at all. If they do it, break through and exploit with the tanks. And by the way, I try to have 8 tanks groups at start of Barbarossa, killing both russian tank groups in the initial onslaught as well. Dont speak to me of tanks. I think many players think tanks are added to the game for spice. I know they have a real mission in their own right.

Its a pity we cant play each other because of the email problems you encountered with my address.

[Shaka of Carthage]

You bring up something that every game designer from day one has faced. Playability vs Realism.

You are correct, I want each side to have the historically correct amount of units so we as players are faced with exactly the same decisions those nations were faced with. Replayability would then come from not making those same decisions, as well as the effects that tech advances and the random starting because of readiness. Germans vs Russians, not Greys vs Reds.

Since you can appreciate the importance of the Panzertruppen, you should also understand why the action points of the existing units bugs me. The German, French, Polish, etc (all the horse supported) Armies and Corps should have one less action point. Currently, they move as if they are motorized. Only the US, UK and later year Russians should move that fast. When or if we ever get a Unit Editor, that will be taken care of then.

You created a new e-mail account, which I responded to. By then, I think you had gotten your game started with JerseyJohn. At your convience, we can try again. I'm always willing to listen to another objective opinion regarding the Limit House Rules. Especially since I'm about ready to implement the "no amphib invasion" option.

[Amona]

Shaka, I have now 6 games going. Lets try our game in a while, when 1 or 2 are ended.

What are the details of your "no amphib invasion" option?

By the way, you are right on one hand regarding forces at hand, but on the other there would have been, for example, the option for Germany to expand its airforce and lets say have 8 airfleets. You surely know it was planned to shift production to air and naval after Barbarossa. You might say the fuel problem limited the size of German airforce, but some expansion would have been possible. These are decision options players should have too, as the warleaders had them too.

[Shaka of Carthage]

July 26, 1942

The German 5th Army, of Army Group South, is no longer effective as a combat unit. The Russian 13th and 3rd Shock Armies launched an offensive against the 5th Army NW of Odessa. While no ground was lost, the 5th Army position has been replaced by the Italian 1st Army.

Italian Aero units increase attacks against Konev HQ, while being intercepted by Russian air units.

Security units in Yugo are engaged in combat with another Partisan faction.

Italian submarine pack sinks British merchant ships in the Med (5 MPPs).

[Shaka of Carthage]

Amona

Ignoring the oil and other constraints, yes, there is the ability to increase the Air Force and Navy at the expense of the Army, specifically the armored forces. But thats a bit too much to ask for someone to handle using House Rules. I don't like the fact that you have to count your units so as not to exceed the max. If I could somehow modify the setup of Italy, Russia and US, I would offer an alternative, but it cannot be done. Hence, the limits. And even there, instead of accurate restrictions, like Germany having 16 Armies, 11 Corps and 8 Panzers, I just go with the limit of 35.

I'll start another topic about the Amphib option, since I suspect quite a few people will think I'm nuts for doing it this way, and I don't want to clutter this thread up anymore than it is. It is already 4 pages long.

Like I said, we can do a PBEM at your convience.

[Oak]

August 2, 1942

Another quiet move for the Allies.

In the east ... the Konev HQ pulls back from the line and out of range of Axis air. Russian line is reinforced.

In the west ... no air strikes by the Allies. The Free French cruiser stops bombarding Brussels and begins bombarding Brest, but has no effect. Continued probing by US transports and continued searching of the Atlantic, without results.

[Shaka of Carthage]

August 9, 1942 (?)

Army Group South and Army Group Central both conduct probing attacks against the Russian defensive line.

Luft units initiate air strikes against Odessa, which are countered by Russian air. Luft has quite a difficult time getting past the Russian air and attacks against Odessa have minial effect. Army Group South's Rocket detachment fires into Odessa as well, but no effect.

Italian submarine pack sinks British merchants in Med (5 MPPs).

The stalemate isn't a good thing for the Axis, as we lose the MPP battle. But very few choices are available to the Axis.

[Oak]

August 16, 1942

Things are getting worse for the Axis, much worse.

In the east ... the Russians reinforce after the attacks on the Russian line (that caused little damage). BUT, the big news is ...

In the west ... the Low Countries have been liberated! The entrenched German army in Brussels was attacked by 2 US air (now at level 3), 2 UK air and the UK bomber. Bombardment by the experienced battleship Rodney finished off the army in Brussels. The US 2nd Army, sitting in transports next to Antwerp, landed and took Antwerp port. 3 other US armies, 1 US corp and the Eisenhauer HQ then disembarked in Brussels and spread out across Belgium and Holland. The Free French army also landed west of Brussels.

Attacks were made on Essen by 2 landing armies as well as by 2 carriers.

The Allies now control most of the Low Countries (except the 2 most southern hexes) and a small part of northern France. Cologne is empty, but too far for the Allies to reach this turn.

And, the Free French cruiser continues to bombard Brest without doing any damage.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Axis situation as of late August 1942

Western Front MPPs... UK 318, US 260

The Low Countries has six (6) French and American units inside it, with the French unit actually spilling out into part of France. There may be a HQ supporting those units but that has not be confirmed.

The US navy has been destroyed, and there are no transports afloat. There are four (4) more US ground units uncounted for. If we assume that there is a HQ in Benelux, that would leave three (3) more. Suspect they are garrisons for Canada and/or US. Doubt they are in the UK. Time will tell.

UK only has eight (8) ground units reported and roughly eleven (11) naval (transport?) units.

US and UK have four (4) level 3 Air units between them. The UK also has one (1) strategic bomber and the Free French Air in Malta. There are two (2) UK carriers as well. Thats six (6) air units and one (1) strategic bomber supporting the US invasion.

Eastern Front MPPs.... Russia 483

Russia has roughly 30 ground units, of which we can identify 15 or 16. They still have manpower reserves they can tap into (another 10 or 11 units). No Russian cities have been taken and the initial 200 mile penetration by AG Center hasn't been able to make any additional progress.

Russia has three (3) Air units, at least level 2. Good chance that Russia has heavily invested in Jet tech. We know they have already done so in Anti-Tank weapons.

Summary MPPs... Germany 681, Italy 293

The Axis cannot raise anymore units. Our manpower is tapped (ie reached unit limits). Our strategic reserve cannot be in two places, so once its committed, its not available for any other use.

The Allies and Russia on the other hand, have the ability to commit to a two (2) front war and sustain it. The Western front may not have alot of ground units, but its heavily supported by air units. The East has a large number of ground units, and sufficient air support.

This is what German High Command is faced with during August of '42. What will they do?

[Shaka of Carthage]

August 23, 1942

Army Group West, reinforced by the strategic reserve, has been tasked with removing the American intrusion. U-459 submarine pack has been sent after the Dunkerque CABG, reducing it to str 3. 11th Army (Ge) and the Essen garrison (2nd Army) attack the 2nd Army (US), reducing it to str 3. The other US units have been identified as 4th, 1st, 3rd Armies and II Corps. The French unit is the 2e Armee.

Army Group Center and Army Group South have been ordered to withdraw to shorter defensive lines.

The lack of results in Russia and the OKH orders to withdraw, have caused massive political repercussions. Hitler countermanded those orders and demanded that AG Center and South hold thier ground. OKH refused. The end result was that the Nazi Party has been overthrown in favor of a simple military dictatorship ruled by Prussian military tradition. Hitler had been confined to his bunker, Goring has been shot and Himmler cannot be found.

Other changes have resulted in manpower from the Luft being transferred to control of the Army and the disbanding of the SS, except for the Waffen SS. They are being organized into a elite Corps, utilizing the now unemployed SS manpower. Resources are being poured into the Flak units to defend against the Allied aerial assault.