patton vs.rommel

[roqf77]

just to confirm the luftwaffe tank thing didnt happen. but the evacuation had alrerady begun beofre hitler ordered any stoppage. the initial stoppage was ordered by von runstead(i may be mistaken by the name) as he belived that he was losing to many tanks. He didnt understand what a weak state the british army wqas in. nor may have hitler. not all of his interventions were bad or made on bad logic.

[Liam]

Originally posted by roqf77:

liam you need to take your own advice. i was talking about asylum seekers. no im not gay but i dont know how that would matter? i mean is being gay mean im stupid please clarify. the middle east i do not believe i mentioned in that way. i was talking about the war on terrorism! i know about the middle east, but if the problem simply began then why has it taken 80 years for the first direct terror attack on uk soil? "hings over there were not done properly now we're going in and cleaning up Evil Dictators after the fact and administrating people that are with modern weapons still living in the 16th century in some cases further back than that." if thats true what about the rest of the world? the us aint doing it single handed. up until iraq the uk had the highest number of troops stationed over seas on peace keeping duty. and the eu has more than the us anyway. and israel wanted to go there. its just the west wall and the gaza strip area's are sacred to both. so i apologise for my disrespectful manner, but there we go. just one pint at dunkirk it was actualy von runstead that held back at dunkirk not hitler.

Hmmm, I think you need to brush up. Foreign influence PERIOD has caused to make these Camel DiscJockey's Billionares and given their radical Ideals a Place in Modern Western Society...

Our schools give them the know how...

See how we're thanked?

Yeah we used to run their countries like little pawns and we still do, they're nothing more than our bishes and we conquor, delegate and milk them dry and offer them Western Toys and Greenback in exchange. Their really foolish people and will end up with Nill when their Oil Runs out...

What do I have to say.. Honestly, Terrorism has been around long before Osama and look in Ireland, did the Irish ever win? Noway. Look at Isreal? It doesn't work, it only prolongs suffering. If these people want what they want they need to stop the radical sects and approach the table with some brains. Even Hitler had that Politically

Saddam was just plain and stupid. He could've taken a portion of Kuwait easily. Osama didn't even manage to get a Nuke off, what a total failure for a Ultimate MasterMind. Weakling.. They're quite easy to make and before 9/11 and even after quite easy to deliver. If you have a Few Hundred Mill.

I'm not argueing with you, I'm stating facts. Leave these people alone and let them kill themselves off like they were doing for eons, and just trade their oil for our 2nd rate weapons

That's cruel but sad and true

[roqf77]

no i dont.but if thats your opinion than that fair enough. but you should note that in the case of the ira, it was not lettng them blow themselves up that has generaly stopped the killing. it was with tough security measures and opening a dialogue with them. i have studied the history of ireland, so that simply just is not the case. although i agree terrorism doesnt work. but simply selling them guns is definatly not the answer, we have to try and engage them as well. work at the grass roots level to try and undermine their support, without new recruits there will be no terrorists in 30 years. Look at india as an example, although there is some problems wityh there administration, it is a reletavily weathy country. wanting contact with the western world, many complaint lines in the uk have been contracted out to indian companies. your pov on hitler is skewed massivly, he never approached any table with an other intention than war. and as far as your comment about oil i think that says more about the content of your character than anything else.

[jon_j_rambo]

@roqf77 --- It's strange how everybody blames Hitler for the mistakes & give the Generals the glory for the victories. Hitler was the man, if you like anti-Christs. Those Generals served their anti-Christ, thus making themselves Nazis. You can't serve under Hitler & say you're not a Nazi, what a joke. Liam is right, Hitler did come to the table, all the time. Public speaking, annexing countries, etc. The master race was stupid, thus not the master race. They ended up destroyed. Germany was lucky we cared enough to protect from the Russians (and the rest of the world), else Stalin might have stuffed all the Fritzs in ovens.

[ August 06, 2005, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

You can't serve under Hitler & say you're not a Nazi, what a joke.

Similarily, Robert E Lee fought for the Confederacy just because he had to chooce between defending his homestate Virginia, or not. Does that make Robert E Lee a racist?

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Germany was lucky we cared enough to protect from the Russians (and the rest of the world), else Stalin might have stuffed all the Fritzs in ovens.

Yeah, sure.

Or maybe the russians would have used the german scientists, workers and soldiers against the US, against democracy, against christianity ("opium fuers volk").

[Bill101]

Zappsweden wrote:

"Similarily, Robert E Lee fought for the Confederacy just because he had to chooce between defending his homestate Virginia, or not. Does that make Robert E Lee a racist?"

No, but by his actions Lee helped defend slavery, something to which he was opposed. In the same way Rommel furthered the cause of the Nazis for 5 years before turning on them in 1944.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Zapp --- Guilt by association? "Sorry, but I have no idea about the inner heart, soul, & thoughts of General Lee. Is that what you asked me here for Lt. Caffey? I hope you're not pinning your hopes to footlockers & phonebills" --- Col. Jessup in a Few Good Men.

Everything comes down to definitions son. I'm not overally concerned with the Rebels of the U.S. Civil War & their politics. Lets just say the Legend's roots & interests are North of Gettysburg.

Back to the subject.....The USA gets shafted in SC, the game is bias to Euros, it's just that simple. Are you kidding me? The USA gets two ship counters? Where's the bombers? Where's the cash? Where's the troops? Where's the leadership? It's just another attempt to waterdown the history books against the USA.

Too much Legend, too little time. It's a good thing I'm here to educate you clowns with the battle strategies of Strategic Command!

[jon_j_rambo]

SC designers, you kidding me? This dude is the best in the business. Just because some Bunta encircled sleeping farmers with tanks, then beat up little old ladies doesn't mean a thing. Wolfgang didn't have a clue against a real opponent.

We love you George. When playing SC, I always buy you first despite the Bunta bias.

[jon_j_rambo]

Historical takes:

Audacious and profane, General George S. Patton Jr. was one of the ablest and most controversial U.S. commanders in World War II. The San Gabriel, California, native was fond of presenting himself as a modern-day cavalryman, outfitted with ivory-handled sidearm and leading tank outfits across Nazi-occupied France. Patton once exclaimed, "Compared to war, all other forms of human endeavor shrink to insignificance."

Patton distinguished himself in various World War II campaigns including the invasion of North Africa and the capture of Sicily. It was during the Sicilian campaign that Patton generated considerable controversy when he struck a hospitalized G.I., whom he accused of being a malingerer. For this act, the general was forced to issue a public apology. Such miscues forced General Eisenhower to reprimand the outspoken and colorful general.

Patton's expertise in tank command helped frustrate the December 1944 German counteroffensive in the Ardennes at the Battle of the Bulge. Under his command the Third Army swept into Germany and into Czechoslovakia. In April 1945, Patton was promoted to temporary four-star general, but was removed by Eisenhower from his leadership of the Third Army for making inflammatory remarks concerning the denazification policies.

In December 1945, less than a year after the defeat of the Nazis, Patton was killed in an automobile accident in Germany.

[hellraiser]

'Patton's expertise in tank command helped frustrate the December 1944 German counteroffensive in the Ardennes at the Battle of the Bulge.' - oh, really ...

There are several things which led to the Ardennes disaster but Patton is not so relevant here.

Too few troops for the so vast objectives and lack of fuel (crucial).

US 3rd army was ordered to relieve Bastogne and push thru the southern flank of the german salient. By the time Patton's army was on the march, Eisenhower already mobilized some 600k (including US 3rd army) soldiers to repel the axis' advance. 600,000 troops + clear skies meant game over for Germany, anyway.

[hellraiser]

Patton vs Rommel - gimme a break ... ppl should compare russian generals vs the german generals.

The red army was a joke back in 41; but they managed to gain experience extremely fast and applied the blitzkrieg tactic with devastating effect against their 'teachers'. The war was lost in the east by the germans. USA joined in 41, by that time UK was more or less confined to it's home isle and if it weren't for the commies ... guess what ...

And JJR comes here and cries about USA not being correctly treated in the game - man, USA joined in 41 and the war ended in 45 ... most of the games allies d-day axis in 41 - now that's not historical at all, isn't it ...

Low starting mpps/troops reflect the fact that in 1941, USA was not in the best shape - US economy was not fully converted for war production and a lot of US resources were diverted to the Pacific.

A good point you had some time ago - unfortunately the game does not acknowledge the concept of the bridgehead/landing beaches thus being most of the time difficult to open the west front anywhere else besides france. Supply stinks, indeed.

[jon_j_rambo]

@HR --- The fact you're speaking English in Translyvania is proof enough the U.S.A. is not correctly portrayed in SC. Obviously there has some book burning in Romania about Patton. Dude, this cat was going to smash thru the Siegferd Line in mid-1944, but politics stopped him. Patton would have ended the war 1-year earlier if they would have let him make an End Run. Dude, Patton was coming to the Balklans to save you. The U.S. Government stopped Patton, not any Wolfgang Pricenhoffer General. Patton was on his way to the Whitehouse, well, when that accidental (yeah right) car wreck got him (see operation Brass Target). Remember son, the USA is always the road team, so it does take us a moment to turnover Ford & General Motors...now it's Lockheed Martin. Enjoy the English, Democracy, & Capitalism...it's the only way to live.

Too much Legend, too little time.

[jon_j_rambo]

George, dude, you're a badass Legend, Icon, & an American Hero! SC needs to up your rating.

[jon_j_rambo]

Only the USA has Legends like this in the field. We love you 32nd Armor.

[JerseyJohn]

Double Post, please read the next one.

[ August 08, 2005, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

We love you George. When playing SC, I always buy you first despite the Bunta bias.

"Well Rambo, here in the Great Beyond, we pretty much do what we want to do and hear what we want to hear. And believe me, son, I'm hearing you all the time! Maybe I'm biased because we both love Old Blood and Guts, I love him because we're talking about me, and you love him because, well, you've got some loose ball bearings in your turret, but what's the difference, we both love old Georgie and that's all that counts.

"There's a special place for you up here, Rambo, where we can both quote things in French, watch screwy old movies and tickle the ladies with our riding crops.

"Yessiree, when you enter the Pearly Gates you're coming right over to General Patton's HQ so we can spend eternity waging war on Fritz and his heinous Huns!

"Pearly Gates -- I don't know, that sounds like something a New Orleans Pimp would have at the entrance of his bordello. I've tried to get them to change it to the Ivory gates, like the handles of my .45s, but these namby pamby heavenly types won't budge and, heh, they were here first.

"Anyhow, Rambo, when you come up here we'll get in my Sherman and run down Atilla and his nutty Huns, Richard and those wacky crusaders, Napoleon and his frozen Grande Armee, Tojo and his sneaky nips, Peter Pan and those juvenile delinquents of his, Mother Teressa and ..."

[ August 09, 2005, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[roqf77]

sorry rambo but i disagree. he didnt not smash through the siegfried line. it was actualy manouvered around by monty believe it or not. what stopped patton was over strecthed supply lines. remember at the stoppage, monty and dempsy were just as far ahead as patton and had done it against much stiffer resistence. and just for you informstion it was omar bradley that broke out of normandy not patton as many try to claim. the pause gave a germans time to reset there defences, and the war cotinued until there industrial capacity was taken in the ruhr. and it was taken by monty. patton made an attempt but was repulsed at a bigger loss than market garden in terms of manpower and equipent.

besides the d-day landing were in mid 44.

people get a bad picture of monty around caen but remember 8 out of the 10 armoured divisions posted in normandy were placed against the british positions. and one of the two the americans faced were considered unfit for frontline combat.

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Just because some Bunta encircled sleeping farmers with tanks, then beat up little old ladies doesn't mean a thing. Wolfgang didn't have a clue against a real opponent.

Yeah, yeah, if all this rubbish would be true, than this rubbish would be true as well:

Uncle Pattons wins were only achieved & possible because the real german wehrmacht was already buried in russia, and he was now facing the kindermacht:

:cool:

[JerseyJohn]

Good to see you, as always Xwormwood.

-- You ain't talking nonsense. A week or so before the end of the war, one of my uncles attacked a farmhouse where gunfire was coming from. They tried, in broken German, to convince the guys inside that they should surrender because the war would be over soon. They didn't. One of the Americans, looking at the windows through binoculars, said he saw Waffen SS uniforms moving by.

My uncle, who was a staff sergeant at the time and a veteran from North Africa through all the rest, worked his way forward and lobbed a couple of grenades through the windows.

The soldiers he killed were Hitler Youth. From what I was told they were around eleven and twelve years old, about ten of them. One of the youngest staggered outside and died in his arms.

He never fully recovered from that. I didn't know about it till after his death, when my aunt told me about it.

[hellraiser]

Using kids for a last ditch effort was indeed a murder. But murder was not something new for the nazis anyway ...

Believe it or not, those 12-16 yrs old kids were one of the most ferocious soldiers of the 3rd Reich. At their age they did not have the sense of self preservation thus they had no 'fear' as most of the adults experience when fighting battles. People often read about the kids employed on the western front but they were used in the east as well. During the battle of Berlin the russians had horrendous losses and a lot of them were due to those kids. They had to fight them till death cuz those babies won't ever surrender. They were a kind of zombies, brainwashed and turned to nazism. At that age an ideology like nazism works wonders. You may watch the Discovery flicks and see an old man (a young brainwashed soldier back in the '45)saying: 'we actually believed every word they said'. Kids should be raised well, spoiled, loved not sent to fight wars. They take it way too personal.

@JJR - my friend, everyone speaks english. People need to be able to communicate with the others. The obvious choice for this, is english. Powerful economy, nice way of life, pragmatism, speed and boldness - i think the english language has earned the right to be the universal mean of communication. And it is quite easy to learn as well

ref. Patton pushing thru the Siegfried Line - I really have a lot of doubts over this issue. Think of the supplies problems the allies faced after the breakout in Normandy. Why do you think the allies halted their advance at the end of '44? Not cuz of political reasons. They had to establish a potent supply line and feed the french population as well - not an easy task at all even for the mighty US.

As for the push in Czechoslovakia - now that was due to the politics. The western powers had already sold us to the reds ...

The West thought Stalin was going to get those eastern countries no matter what. The reds had an immense army, very well equipped and battle hardened; the West was reluctant to engage directly the soviets so they took the compromise path. Only the superior allied air power was not enough to stop the commies.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by hellraiser:

Believe it or not, those 12-16 yrs old kids were one of the most ferocious soldiers of the 3rd Reich.

Hitler Jugend fought hard at Normandie but to call german kids some of the most ferocious soldiers are just not entirly correct.

[waltero]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Historical takes:

Audacious and profane, General George S. Patton Jr. was one of the ablest and most controversial U.S. commanders in World War II. The San Gabriel, California, native was fond of presenting himself as a modern-day cavalryman, outfitted with ivory-handled sidearm and leading tank outfits across Nazi-occupied France. Patton once exclaimed, "Compared to war, all other forms of human endeavor shrink to insignificance."

Patton distinguished himself in various World War II campaigns including the invasion of North Africa and the capture of Sicily. It was during the Sicilian campaign that Patton generated considerable controversy when he struck a hospitalized G.I., whom he accused of being a malingerer. For this act, the general was forced to issue a public apology. Such miscues forced General Eisenhower to reprimand the outspoken and colorful general.

Patton's expertise in tank command helped frustrate the December 1944 German counteroffensive in the Ardennes at the Battle of the Bulge. Under his command the Third Army swept into Germany and into Czechoslovakia. In April 1945, Patton was promoted to temporary four-star general, but was removed by Eisenhower from his leadership of the Third Army for making inflammatory remarks concerning the denazification policies.

In December 1945, less than a year after the defeat of the Nazis, Patton was killed in an automobile accident in Germany.

Sounds like they had a tight leash on Patton. Might be if Patton died in Battle, he might stand a good chance of getting a better rating

The German Generals lived like Gods! Can you blame a Military man (General) for being a Nazi? The first World War was just a probe, then the Nazis came, WOOT! WOOT!!!

The German might of lost the War, but they schooled us in War.

[roqf77]

hellraiser, that was exactly my point about supplies. but i think that, the western allies would of been more than a match for the ussr but hey.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Waltero --- Hello, is there anybody in there?