Jump to content

patton vs.rommel


pino

Recommended Posts

@HR --- Oil was going to flow thru a pipeline? Trucks? Yeah, right. The North Africa plan by Wolfgang was pure stupidity, real life wasn't like SC plays out. The Germans couldn't even maintain a fighting force in Libya, thousand miles away from the jackpot.

Seriously, who did the Germans really defeat? Why are people so high on their Generals? Every front the Germans lost, they didn't know how to close the deal. That's good Generals? Don't give me the "it's Hitler's fault routine".

If the plot to kill Hitler was so real, why did this great Rommel fail at that? Rommel couldn't even kill Hitler himself, then kills himself? Stupid! That's a good General? Just cap Adolf face-to-face, then cap yourself then!

The Fritz lost & people continue to diss on America's leadership & worship Gerry. SC reflects this attitude too. SC is designed to sell to Europeans & German dudes.

All the Germans did was kill civilians & race across on undefended territory. Poland, France, Denmark, Low Countries, etc....were all a joke. Germany had friends all over Europe. The Polish people were more anti-Semetic than many Wolfgangs. Germany could have defeated France with squirt guns. Good grief, the French joined the Germans after their fall. The Swiss, Sweden, etc....Fritz had lots of friends.

Where were these great German Generals when planning for the Battle of Britain? Russia? North Africa? Battle of the Atlantic? The Germans lost & they are given the best generals in SC? Give me a break.

[ August 04, 2005, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 287
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

"The Germans lost & they are given the best generals in SC" The Russians or as good as the Germans I think in SC.

But have you ever taken a look at a map of Europe in 1942?

Almost whole Europe was captured by the Germans.

Since Napoleon nobodey ever did this again.They captured 3000 km of Russia, Germany, at that moment was 2 or 3 times the size of the US.

So i think they weren't such big idiots after all...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"If the plot to kill Hitler was so real, why did this great Rommel fail at that? Rommel couldn't even kill Hitler himself, then kills himself? Stupid! That's a good General? Just cap Adolf face-to-face, then cap yourself then!"

It was a plot with more than 1 general, the plan was to kill Hitler and then take command themselves, so they needed a bomb that was strong enough to kill Hitler, but not themselves.It had to be a bomb because they wanted to take command afterward and if he one of the generals would have shot him, he had to kill himselve because otherwise the SS would have donne that for him...And if you want to take command, you have to be alive, no? So they planted a bomb but failed..

And if Hitler would have sit down instead of standing up at the moment of the explosion, he would have died. The oaken table saved Hitler's live.

And Rommel killing himself after that? I would have donne the same thing, you saw what happended with the others, they were hang in a freezer or something like that and a bullet trough my head is a more pleasant death then being hang in a freezer...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

'SC reflects this attitude too. SC is designed to sell to Europeans & German dudes. ' - check my last battle as allies vs the mighty Ferdmarschall Yodl :D

Allies stuck to the history in that one, right?

Just use the campaign editor and make the allies as powerful as you think they were during the war, np...that's the ideea of the bidding systems :D:D:D

Too bad the allies didn't have the fabulous army commander Hellraiser - war would have been over in '43 hihihihi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And if Hitler would have
Yeah, yeah, more IFs. If my Aunt had testicles, she'd be my Uncle. Rommel couldn't even kill Hitler. Maybe 2-bombs would have been planted by a smart General.

look at a map of Europe in 1942
Yeah, what did they conquer? Killing sleeping farmers with tanks? Gee, great battle plan against England. Don't you get it? The majority of Europe was already with the Nazis. Denmark, Low Countries, Sweden, Swiss, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Italy, Yugoslavia, Vichey France.

Remember this quote son,"If you wanna be the Man, you gotta beat the Man, but it's not beating the Man, it's staying the Man."

SC insults the USA with MMPs, Leadership, Naval forces, Air power, Ground power, etc. SC disses on the USA & all you guys do is worship some flake Generals who drove tanks over farmhouses. Where's the numbnut who lost Army Group South? Where's the numbnut who lost LF against England?

Where's the numbnut who lost N.Africa?

If you want a historically correct SC game, lower the rankings of the Buntas & give the real deal USA.

It's a good thing I'm hear to educate you clowns & play test SC.

Too much Legend too little time >>> OUT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by pino:

"The Germans lost & they are given the best generals in SC" The Russians or as good as the Germans I think in SC.

But have you ever taken a look at a map of Europe in 1942?

Almost whole Europe was captured by the Germans.

Since Napoleon nobodey ever did this again.They captured 3000 km of Russia, Germany, at that moment was 2 or 3 times the size of the US.

So i think they weren't such big idiots after all...

I don't think they were 2 or 3 times the size of the United States, but at least the same size, for a while.

You're right, Pino. All this talk about them not having good generals (they definitely had the best, to say otherwise shows a person is misinformed) or troops (once again, on the whole, they had the best, there's no doubt about that either) is a lot of nonsense.

For the record, here's a map of the European theater, late summer 1942, minus Libya and Egypt.

EUROPE1942.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

rog

True, the biggest factors are almost always experience and equipment.

During the 1930s Il Duce wanted to have a huge army, which he achieved, but at the expense of having quality equipment. There were also too many political hacks in the Italian Army and Air Force. One example of this was that Italian aircraft operating in Libya lacked sandscreens, despite Italy's having been there since 1913!*

--*Ironically it was the first place aircraft was used for attacking ground troops; small bombs dropped from planes by their pilots.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by roqf77:

liam. your talking crap. the uk actualy has the highest number of immigrants and the like. secondly us aid was not significant in the battle of britain.

thirdly about kos etc the uk sent more troops and stationed them for longer. and for that matter so did germany so shut up you ignorant jerk. spout your rheteric somewhere else this is a no politics forum. on the war on terror, the us has invaded afganistan and iraq, nothing else. The uk has sent expert police to other countires i.e spain and have brought many to justice. i agree with the war in iraq but the grounds that it would, secure the world from terroism is very shaky. so please tell me how the french and british created this problem? i would like to know?

Lastly and my final point, if the us is saving the world why did it do nothing in siera lieone? in the last china taiwan crisis why was it ther uk and not the us that threatend china with military action? your thoughts need alot more clarity, you certainly need alot more perspective. You need to be alot more down to earth. and if this level of though is all your education has got you, i would ask for my money back.

Insulting and Ignorant I see.

French and British Colonial Interest created the situation that exists in the Middle East, had they not tampered with it and left it a Arab State as was desired after WW1 and the fall of the Ottoman Empire then the problems that exist today likely would not exist at all. What you really have are many divisions not respecting Ethnicity or Tribes. You've got Kurds, Sunnis, Shi'ites all in 1 country. The West divided the Oil not the People Properly..Thus, you've all these problems, and including the worst of it all millions of Jews in Isreal that the Colonials also helped along tongue.gif

Now I admit after a certian point the USA become the 2nd Colonial Administrator along with the Reds to keep Balance in the MidEast during the Cold War, but the dye had been set already!

Study before you insult next. I'm not an expert regarding Arab MiddleEastern Colonial Era but I know this much. The Sour taste for the West was founded after Britian's and France's division of the region and the desire by the Arabs for a Free Arab State was wizzed on after WW1. Things over there were not done properly now we're going in and cleaning up Evil Dictators after the fact and administrating people that are with modern weapons still living in the 16th century in some cases further back than that.

Also WE DIDN'T HELP THE UK? Are you Gay or Drunk too? We gave the UK destroyers when after Dunkirk They would'd lost a valuable portion of the UK Fleet they couldn't replace had that not happened and Hitler would've pushed, the UK would've been vulnerable, far more than you understand! What was it 30 or 40 Destroyers? The UK did recieve aide in forms and later during '41 you cannot deny FDR went out of his way with the Lendlease act without Declaring War and not peeing off the US Radicals.

[ August 04, 2005, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was 50 old (but still very useful) DDs. And they weren't 'given', it was a trade. And the deal wasn't concluded till 2 Sept 40, too late to have much influence on the BoB. Not sure when they were actually delivered, or when they started ops under the red duster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by JonS:

It was 50 old (but still very useful) DDs. And they weren't 'given', it was a trade. And the deal wasn't concluded till 2 Sept 40, too late to have much influence on the BoB. Not sure when they were actually delivered, or when they started ops under the red duster.

::smiles::

and we weren't allowed to sell armaments to a nation at war but how much valuable materials were traded with the UK? VS How much was traded with the Germans? and even if those were old, by the time the Nazis got into full gear anything would've helped. Sadly not enough was offered and I'm sure FDR would've given Planes, Tanks, Guns and Ships if he could've.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by pino:

"The Germans lost & they are given the best generals in SC" The Russians or as good as the Germans I think in SC.

But have you ever taken a look at a map of Europe in 1942?

Almost whole Europe was captured by the Germans.

Since Napoleon nobodey ever did this again.They captured 3000 km of Russia, Germany, at that moment was 2 or 3 times the size of the US.

So i think they weren't such big idiots after all...

I don't think they were 2 or 3 times the size of the United States, but at least the same size, for a while.

You're right, Pino. All this talk about them not having good generals (they definitely had the best, to say otherwise shows a person is misinformed) or troops (once again, on the whole, they had the best, there's no doubt about that either) is a lot of nonsense.

For the record, here's a map of the European theater, late summer 1942, minus Libya and Egypt.

</font>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Liam,

That's a scary thought for sure!

Personally, I think the nazis would have begun declining within Germany itself if Germany had avoided defeat while it was controling a huge empire.

-- As it was, in 1943, a demonstration in Berlin by wifes and relatives of Jewish men succeeded in getting them all released. None of the demonstrators were arrested. In other words, by 1943 the Final Solution, even within Germany itself, was starting to lose it's priority over conducting the war itself. It was an admission that Germans were having war weariness from losses at the front and the ever increasing strategic bombings on home territory. Alos, by that time, the SS was raising two Moslem divisions in the Balkans and openly recruiting Slavs in Russia and the Baltic -- both of which horrified the party faithful.

The proverbial if -- Germany had gotten away from the psychotic nazi racism, it could have drawn upon a larger population than was contained in the United States! And I'm not talking about conquering any more of the USSR than they actually acquired.

What Germany most needed, and what Churchill most feared they would get, was a breather, a period of peace to consolidate what they'd conquered in 1939-40 and 41. They could have had that, too. In the Spring of 1942 Stalin wanted to get out of the war even if it meant conceding to Germany everything that it had taken in Barbarossa.

That would have left Japan not yet at war with the United States and a super expanded Germany fighting England alone. Even if the rest went historically and Japan went to war with the United States, with Germany joining her, it would have been very tough for the Allies. It would have meant, the United States and UK fighting against Japan and a Germany that was not being bled white in Russia.

I think it's safe to say the result would have been very different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[continued from above post]

JonS

There was a pretty good book on the trade (which was for the lease of British naval bases in the Caribean) called, Fifty Ships That Saved the World. I read it in 1969 but can't find it listed on the Internet.

-- I don't know how the Battle of Britain came into this topic. USA assistance was only starting at about time. The biggest help to Britain came from Goering himself. Aside from his absurd tactical meddling, he made a really brilliant decision to reduce aircraft production on the very day the Luftwaffe had it's highest losses! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where were these great German Generals when planning for the Battle of Britain? Russia? North Africa? Battle of the Atlantic? The Germans lost & they are given the best generals in SC? Give me a break. [/QB]

John, you fail to comprehend the power Hitler held over everyone. They trully believe he was the savior of Germany and when he would contracict his Generals (time and time again) they would listen, they had this belief that he knew things they could not envison, even to the very last days.

That has nothing to do with their military planning. You can read in many books or see for your own eyes US and UK Generals praising the military minds of the Germans and stating that everytime they intercepted a German message with Hitler sending orders they would cheer knowing it was anothe dumb order being sent out.

In short the only IF of WW2 is , we're luck Hitler was giving the orders because if not many battles would have meant destruction.

Here is a good start. WW2 would have started around 43, while everyone else would still not building up their forces Germany would have been stacked with a military power that would dwarf what they had in 39. Hitler told his Generals yes but then changed his mind = you just lost the war.

2- Dunkirk, 340 000 dead if Hitler had not overturned his Generals who wanted to press on. They stopped for 2-3 days which gave the Allies time to rest and prepare defenses.

3- Mussolini told him he would not be ready for war until 43, Hitler said ok but turned around and did the opposite. Italy was easily defeated.

4- Stalingrad, Generals wanted to not bother with it and continue south for the oils and raw materials. Hitler did not want the city with the name of Stalin to stand, so they just fought for no reason.

It was one error after the other.

They are alot of what IF's as you say, but 90% of them are all what IF Hitler had let military decisions to his Generals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As it was, in 1943, a demonstration in Berlin by wifes and relatives of Jewish men succeeded in getting them all released. None of the demonstrators were arrested.
Yes, released into a gas chamber, thrown to dogs, tortured, experimented on, lined up & shot, beaten to death, name it. Give me a break, German protesters marching like it's 1964 People's Park.

Hitler was a minature anti-Christ, killing Jews, gypsies, civilians, anybody he wanted & had lots of friends doing the work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Blashy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

Where were these great German Generals when planning for the Battle of Britain? Russia? North Africa? Battle of the Atlantic? The Germans lost & they are given the best generals in SC? Give me a break.

John, you fail to comprehend the power Hitler held over everyone. They trully believe he was the savior of Germany and when he would contracict his Generals (time and time again) they would listen, they had this belief that he knew things they could not envison, even to the very last days.

That has nothing to do with their military planning. You can read in many books or see for your own eyes US and UK Generals praising the military minds of the Germans and stating that everytime they intercepted a German message with Hitler sending orders they would cheer knowing it was anothe dumb order being sent out.

In short the only IF of WW2 is , we're luck Hitler was giving the orders because if not many battles would have meant destruction.

Here is a good start. WW2 would have started around 43, while everyone else would still not building up their forces Germany would have been stacked with a military power that would dwarf what they had in 39. Hitler told his Generals yes but then changed his mind = you just lost the war.

2- Dunkirk, 340 000 dead if Hitler had not overturned his Generals who wanted to press on. They stopped for 2-3 days which gave the Allies time to rest and prepare defenses.

3- Mussolini told him he would not be ready for war until 43, Hitler said ok but turned around and did the opposite. Italy was easily defeated.

4- Stalingrad, Generals wanted to not bother with it and continue south for the oils and raw materials. Hitler did not want the city with the name of Stalin to stand, so they just fought for no reason.

It was one error after the other.

They are alot of what IF's as you say, but 90% of them are all what IF Hitler had let military decisions to his Generals. [/QB]</font>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Liam,

That's a scary thought for sure!

Personally, I think the nazis would have begun declining within Germany itself if Germany had avoided defeat while it was controling a huge empire.

-- As it was, in 1943, a demonstration in Berlin by wifes and relatives of Jewish men succeeded in getting them all released. None of the demonstrators were arrested. In other words, by 1943 the Final Solution, even within Germany itself, was starting to lose it's priority over conducting the war itself. It was an admission that Germans were having war weariness from losses at the front and the ever increasing strategic bombings on home territory. Alos, by that time, the SS was raising two Moslem divisions in the Balkans and openly recruiting Slavs in Russia and the Baltic -- both of which horrified the party faithful.

The proverbial if -- Germany had gotten away from the psychotic nazi racism, it could have drawn upon a larger population than was contained in the United States! And I'm not talking about conquering any more of the USSR than they actually acquired.

What Germany most needed, and what Churchill most feared they would get, was a breather, a period of peace to consolidate what they'd conquered in 1939-40 and 41. They could have had that, too. In the Spring of 1942 Stalin wanted to get out of the war even if it meant conceding to Germany everything that it had taken in Barbarossa.

That would have left Japan not yet at war with the United States and a super expanded Germany fighting England alone. Even if the rest went historically and Japan went to war with the United States, with Germany joining her, it would have been very tough for the Allies. It would have meant, the United States and UK fighting against Japan and a Germany that was not being bled white in Russia.

I think it's safe to say the result would have been very different.

A restbit would've been what they needed for certian. A few years to consolidate gains John and all the possbilities after that. Hell, the Germans would've been wise to stop right in their tracks and have themselves a vast chunk of Europe. Though as you say the persecution of the Slavs and other undesirables under the Nazi Regime was not going to make it easy to manage an Empire less you intended to kill off a large portion of it's population.

The blunder with the harshness of the S.S. and the Nazi Alienation over it's conquored people as you pointed out many times was a foolish one. support the Reich needed most early on to keep Stalin at bey was Waffen troopers. Their factories were needed, their farming...Everything... German industry alone was not sufficient to cope with the Industrial might of the USA or Russia even without large tracts of Her European Real Estate.

Hitler had no ambition though of actually reaching an attainable goal. His goals were far too lofty.

Interesting point on the Jews, they were a misuse of resources. Any smart man would've seen a million skilled workers producing Amunitions, Aircraft Parts, etc... working hard for the Reich and for it's Future as a worthwhile investment to hold onto. If the hate ran so deep, a jewish state, satelite state should've been provided with German Governing... Foolishness...

50 Destroyers? I'm certian every last one of those puppies would've killed several thousand Germans making an amphibious Landing. People underestimate how valuable support ships are too, they're soo many uses

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, as Blashy pointed out - we should feel grateful Hitler was actually who ran the show back in the 40s. Several times, german high profile officers tried to make him delegate powers on military matters (Manstein was one of those figures) but he liked to play the 'Gross Feldherr des alles Zeite' or whatever you germans call 'the great military commander of all times'. Hitler was a political genius but a military incompetent person. He had some idees regarding strategy (say, he had a 'nose') but failed to comprehend BASIC military issues like supply, attrition, etc and constantly overestimated german military power and constantly underestimated the allied one.

A lot of people make a very big mistake - they remember the Wehrmacht as a 150% motorized and armoured super fighting machine. It is so wrong! The 39-40 german army was far, far away from this point - they had the vast majority of the stuff being moved from place to place by horses, and a lot of infantry still marched on foot. The fact that they designed and came to use some super weapons (the famous Tigers and Panthers, the Me262 and a lot of other kewl stuff) was more or less irrelevant in a war where numbers mattered.

Their main trumps were: an excellent military school which produced probably the best field commanders of the war, the outstanding discipline (inherent to german people anyway), the excellent communications developed between large or small units in the field, and very, very good soldiers - brave and proffesional.

On the other hand, their main flaw was a poorly conducted strategic campaign, led by this military idiot called Hitler, who dismissed every and all proven military theories (he considered himself an adept of Clausewitz but constantly ignored his advices on waging wars), Hitler's habit of not listening to senior army commanders (and even more, in late war, he sacked excellent commanders who were not sharing his views and had them replaced with his puppets who were obeying his orders 100%), Hitler's fear of aging (he wanted everything to happen during his lifetime) and ultimately, pushing Germany into a war for which it was not yet ready.

Despite these imbecile strategic planning, the german army had commanders which produced military 'miracles' - people like Manstein, Rommel, Model, Von Kleist, Guderian, Runstedt, etc - if it weren't for them, the war would have been over long before 1945. If this kind of people were allowed to actually run the war, things could have looked different now. Not necessarily that Germany would have won the war but it is my guess that a certain status quo would have been achieved, a status quo that would have been in Germany's advantage.

The problem is: would the nazism have been overthrown under these circumstances? Very difficult to answer - this is the reason we should be grateful that Hitler actually run the war and not his excellent army commanders.

[ August 05, 2005, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

German Generals were the better of the bunch.

It is not known for certain that Rommel was a member of the plot to kill Hitler.

I don’t think he was out to kill Hitler.

It is clear to me that Germany had the better Generals of the war.

Look at the allies; they incorporated many German Generals into the service after the war. (To learn)

Look what they were up against. It was a pretty good try.

Pieper; He was seventy eight years old and they tried to take him out! All of the Attackers were found dead in his home.

I bet that old bastard took them all out single handed!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This wasn't a Germany's war as much as it was Hitler's War. Hitler ran the show, entirely by the end of the war.

Hitler had gradually gained control of the Army, until by 1942, it was all but complete. There was no one to stop him by that time, von Brauchitsch (Commander in Chief of Army) being replaced by the Führer himself after the defeat at Moscow. Hitler had full, full control after this point, I cannot emphasize this more than enough. After February 1942, Hitler was the only person, the ONLY person, who saw 'everything' military in nature. He knew and was aware of most military matters, even if he ignored them. He made right and wrong decisions, but the fact of the matter is, he rarely took anyones advice, and no one truly knew how bad the overall situation truly was until it was too late. Even high-ranking generals like Manstein and Zeitzler knew only that their sectors of the front were doing poorly. They simply were either lied to, or not told. Along with the sense of German duty, they could only take limited actions to counter-balance Hitler's wishes, whatever they might be. They tried to fight back some times, resigning in single occasions, like Zeitzler (who was to become head of the Bundeswehr of West Germany in 1952), but did not have much success because their actions weren't collaborated enough. That was also the problem (along with bad luck) with those that wanted to get rid of Hitler, collaboration. Gestapo and SS were strong, but the overall sense of duty and military obedience dampened the resistance of the highest generals to disobey Hitler.

To blame Hitler entirely would not be fair either, he was assisted by many many willing opportunists, thieves, murderers, lackeys and such. His reign was criminal, but the German people as a whole didn't know what was going on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

liam you need to take your own advice. i was talking about asylum seekers. no im not gay but i dont know how that would matter? i mean is being gay mean im stupid please clarify. the middle east i do not believe i mentioned in that way. i was talking about the war on terrorism! i know about the middle east, but if the problem simply began then why has it taken 80 years for the first direct terror attack on uk soil? "hings over there were not done properly now we're going in and cleaning up Evil Dictators after the fact and administrating people that are with modern weapons still living in the 16th century in some cases further back than that." if thats true what about the rest of the world? the us aint doing it single handed. up until iraq the uk had the highest number of troops stationed over seas on peace keeping duty. and the eu has more than the us anyway. and israel wanted to go there. its just the west wall and the gaza strip area's are sacred to both. so i apologise for my disrespectful manner, but there we go. just one pint at dunkirk it was actualy von runstead that held back at dunkirk not hitler.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...