patton vs.rommel

[pino]

I just wonder why Rommel H.Q. gets 8 en Patton H.Q. only 7.

This doesn't make any sence because patton has beaton Rommel in every battle thay fought against eachother(or am I wrong?)

[guinty1]

patton was a hothead,the best armoured general of an below average allied bunch.He never fought a battle in WW2 agaisnt the odds that rommel did,so was never tested to the extent that the axis generals where.To be honest tho i think rommel is a possible 7 as he never was on the eastern front and that was the real test.

[pino]

Euhm thanks to Patton the invasion of Italy succeeded, he helped to defeat the germans in africa(although Montgommery did most of the work),he was going straight to Berlin(but had to stop becuse he didn't had any mor fuell left), he "saved" the 101 aiborn division at Bastogne(although they might have hold it themselves),........

So i think you micht say that Patton did quite well..

And youre saining that the Axis generals had to fight against the odds???Well, thats there own fault because they where just STUPID about what they did in Russia, they shouldn't have attacked Stalingrad but just have to move to the North andt take Moskou , then the Russians probably would have surrended...

But youre right that Patton was never really teseted and that the generals who fought in the East(espescialy the Russian generals) where the best...

[Tagwyn]

Pino: Where did the invasion of Italy succeed? It was a disaster! There were still Allied troops in Italy when Germany surrendered. IF Hitler had sent the troops to Rommel he sent to Tunisa, the war would have lasted longer in N. Africa IMHO. My dad fought in both N. Africa and in Italy (for the Allies LOL!) I.E. Patton's relief of Bastogne in the dead of winter was a masterpiece. Tag

[jon_j_rambo]

Patton is All-American Legend! The dude kicked ass within a sorry panzie system led by Ike & FDR. Patton saved American lives, look at his stats. I could careless about Rommell. The reason he's downgraded in SC is because of the bias against the USA. Good grief, are there any Yanks even playing SC? What kind of crap Navy, Air Force, MMPs, & technology do we get? France starts stronger than the USA. What a joke.

Patton should have been supreme commander, he would have saved lives. Personally, I feel the USA got alot of G.I.'s killed for nothing. We should have just bombed The Fritz to death. Who cares if the Russians would have raped Europe. Even better, we should have spent all our time on Rockets, Nukes, & unmanned planes to kill Gerries.

[Blashy]

#1 I do agree that the Axis Generals faced more difficult situations due to a lack of resources and especially the one that only the biggest dumbass of WW2 in terms of strategy... Hitler

#2 Rambo, Patton as supreme commander would have been a disaster he was much too emotional.

"Who cares if Russians would have raped Europe" That's why there is a bias against USA.

Ike did a fine job as supreme commander.

#3 France does not start stronger, its just that this is Euro theater so half os USA is cut off for resources (the other part in Japan)

#4 "And youre saining that the Axis generals had to fight against the odds???Well, thats there own fault because they where just STUPID about what they did in Russia, they shouldn't have attacked Stalingrad but just have to move to the North andt take Moskow"

The Generals were not stupid in that sense, they knew full well how to proceed. They were stupid in continually listening to Hitler. of course I'm very happy they had that flaw.

[Kuniworth]

Blashy are you and Zappsweden lovers? Heard you were on Jerry Springer back in the days...

[jon_j_rambo]

Germans were overated, it's that simple. What did Rommell ever do? Big deal, he lands in N. Africa, does he want a button? He lost. Resources? Hell (Heaven), we Yanks had to take our game on the road against the Fritz & the Japs. Who did the Germans beat......Sleeping farmers & they killed civilians, big deal. Most of Europe was (and are) Nazis anyway. France, Low Countries, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Italy, Vichey France >>>>>> NAZIS! Sweden, The Swiss, Finland >>>>>> NAZI lovers. Bottom Line, Patton stuck his boot up Germany's ass, he would have ended the war a year earlier if Ike would have cut him loose. Better yet, Patton would have been in Moscow.

Today's Europe, well, speaks English & worships the Dollar bill, folling our lead. They'll be speaking Chinese in 100 years.

[guinty1]

lol at rambo,if the germans are overated how come they nearly took over all of europe.Tactics they developed in ww2 are still in use today(i know coz i was taught them)...USA starts weak in ww2 because all their might was in the pacific on ships and garrisons ,they had fk all army/air to speak of at the outset(they soon made that up mind u lol).Back to the original post ,its rommel v patton ,both had weaknesses but in general rommel was a far superior commander and he didnt go about slapping his shell shocked troops (which was the most disgracefull incident from any allied *leader* in WW2).I would love to see how paton would have coped with no air power,dwindling supplies and manpower and erratic high command,.... ... started polishing his pearl handled revolvers so as to end it all with a clean gun ?

[guinty1]

and p.s .. its not just europe that speaks english !

[jon_j_rambo]

Yeah, Patton bitch slapped a coward, great job! You think The Fritz passed out tulips & tea to their panzies?

Who did the Germans defeat? Nobody. The list of countries they took over invited them in: France, LC, minors......yeah, they took a chunk of Russian wasteland that wasn't prepared...big deal. Take a look a Dresden for the manifest plan.

Now get back to school, sharpen up on your history in addition to English.

-Legend

[hellraiser]

Dresden? Do you mean the air strike that killed 135,000 german civilians for nothing in 1945, when the war was already over? That was a war crime. But how can you blame the winners? No one blamed the germans for the mass murders they were conducting while they were still on top, no one blamed the allies for Dresden episode when the tide had already turned.

On topic:

Patton was very bold, took a lot of chances, was loved by GIs but as a character, he leaved much to be desired. As a field commander he was ok but nothing more. The immense strength of US army made him look like he was a God of US panzers.

Obviously the skill and knowledge of Rommel (+a vast combat experience) was far greater than Patton's. Rommel was 90% of the cases forced to fight without adequate resources, encountering situations where only his sense of strategy and tactics plus a superb veteran core (i.e. Afrika Korps) saved the day.

It's like comparing oranges and apples ...

[pino]

That Dresden thing was their own fault since they invented it themselves...(the Germans)

They used the same tactick in Amsterdam(or was it Rodderdam?) and Warshaw.

And Rambo, what you said about us being Nazi lovers, youre completle wrong about that. My grandfather was killed in WW2 in one of the german camps because he helped jews escape frome Europe. And im sure most of the people in Europe hated the Nazis as much as he did, and I think you shouldn't speak about stuff where you dont know anything about!!!!!!!!!!!

And you say we are worshipping the dollar bill???Maybe you dont know but 1euro=1,25 dollars...

And I think that the Russians saved us all, the Americans did too, but i think the russians where the most important...

If the the Germans had defeat the Russians in the first year of the war, they would have had more troops avaible (maybe to attack England?,or Africa?) and they would have much more supplys for their armys...

But im verry gratefull to the US to for liberating Europa to, without you guys and the Russians , we might have al speaken German by now...

[guinty1]

bitch slapped a coward rambo?? ,he did it more than once thats why the demoted him in italy and sent him home and the guys were not cowards ,maybe if you had been in battle yourself(instead of sitting playing soldiers maybe you should have tried becoming one since youre so obsessed about it) you would know what its like to be shelled.Patton was a wnker pure and simple,just because he was a fairly good field commander didnt make him a decent human being.

p.s.

If you want to insult me again maybe i should give u my address? you must have been one of these little twerps that was bullied at school,dresses up in mommys clothes and wants to rule the world ???

[hellraiser]

'That Dresden thing was their own fault since they invented it themselves' - Pino, check the facts again, please. The Rotterdam/Warsaw airstrikes do not come close to Dresden air strike in terms of casualties. Not to mention the initial objectives of the Rotterdam/Warsaw strikes and the Dresden one. The Dresden air strike was a 100% deliberate terror act which horrified even the british officials.

If you wanna blame the germans, blame them for what they really deserve - genocide(Jews and other races), and terror strikes performed mainly in russia.

The euros were not nazis. Heck, not even the whole german people was nazi. The fact that the Nazi Germany had quite a support from other euro govts - well there were a lot of puppet govts at that time but the vast majority of the ppl living in Europe were against nazis. Take for example my country, Romania - one of the most powerful allies of Nazi Germany and their oil pond as well - the populace was clearly against germans and traditionally friends with UK and France. Marshall Antonescu was leading a govt supporting the germans - do you think that a general formed and educated at british/french army school and even wearing an uniform that clearly resembled the british one, actually LOVED the nazis? It was politics, nothing more. We wanted to survive as a 'free' country instead of being occupied and the realities of the moment were: germany is the continental superpower - you are either with them or occupied.

But these facts are indeed difficult to understand for a guy living in the USA. The fact that you do not care about the Old World make you fail to understand the history and make you draw ridiculous conclusions.

And one more thing: the USA war entry was forced by the US President despite the opinion of his own people. A president who understood there was an opportunity to make USA a superpower. Your average american didn't give a sh*t on European problems. Chasing indians and niggers were too time consuming, right?

[Comrade Trapp]

Originally posted by hellraiser:

Chasing indians and niggers were too time consuming, right?

Silly Euro, the indians were put in their place well before 1939-45. By WWII, they were happily living on their little reservations.

As for the "African Americans", that issue was settled (for the most part) during our Civil War. You see, during the Civil War, the President of the US (Union / Northern States) freed the slaves. The issue was finally setteled when the North gloriously defeated the misled Southerners, and the slaves in the South were freed.

Now of course, there was some racial tension for the next 100 years. But a very large majority of Americans frowned on "chasing down "people of color"".

And that concludes our history lesson for today. Tomarrow we will talk about how America decisively defeated the imperalist British during the "War of 1812".

[Liam]

Rommel was not a bad General.

Patton wasn't a bad General.

They were leaders, a lot of the job wasn't done by them it done by the General Staff and lower ranking officers. The Germans had an excellent officer Corp... Plain straight and simple...

America stepped up to the challenge and by end of WW2 I would say surpassed any other nation with their Officer Corp cause the whole of the German one was killed off

Generals are only part of the Leadership.

Eisenhower wasn't that good

Monty was overrated

I have to admit Manny and Zhukov did some things that history cannot write off

they were no Napoleons or Wellingtons though

[jon_j_rambo]

Dresden was justice. It's sad to hear the denial of the crimes by the Euros. The Germans should have surrendered, it's like playing a game against DragonSlow who won't surrender. Fine, don't surrender, then it's bombs away. Romania supported whatever flag was winning. One thing that the Euros don't understand is the defense of the Jewish element, it's quite Biblical (past, present, & Revelations).

"All this time in Germany & I've never met a Nazi" --- from the Band of Brothers, episode 'Why We Fight'.

"He's a Nazi alright, his real name Price, no, it's probably Pricenhoffer for all I know." --- William Holden as Sgt. J.J. Sefton in the most see classic, Stalag 17.

Rambo knows History

Rambo knows WW-2

Rambo knows alot of cool stuff

Legend from the USA >>>>>>>>> off to golf

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by Blashy:

"Who cares if Russians would have raped Europe" That's why there is a bias against USA.

There is an American motto saying "America is the world". Yes, with a more humble attitude, anti-american biasism would be less.

Another thing I must add is, Nazism, Communism, Fascism and other extremism have in common that they express hate against those who do not fit their profile.

I might dislike ppl or dislike opinions, but I still respect differences. That is why I am no extremist. Extremists have a feeling of that what they think inside their head is superior, and so they give themselves RIGHT, right to do whatever fits their superior ways.

In medieval time, if u licked the dark sides ass you would be better off, but if u spit on the dark side your head would instead be chopped off. That means the bad behaviour pays off and live on.

What can save us is FAITH. Not just any faith, but GOOD faith. Believing in what is good. When doing things that we know are good, despite we did not seeingly gained anything, is good faith.

People are so obsessed with NAMES. They do not wanna be called Nazi because Nazi means BAD. However, many ppl still have opinions that MATCH what extremists throughout the history had. So, in a scenario where such ppl could choose to become a nazi they would do it, if they think Nazism was the winning side.

Shortly, there are extremists everywhere. Bad seeds. They can be respectable, have good jobs and be doing well. It is hard to proof without going into people minds, but the opinions that Nazists and other extremism had live on, believe it.

[ July 29, 2005, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[hellraiser]

@JJR

'Dresden was justice.' - you're either drunk or evil to think that way. Dresden was a war crime. No Christ loving man (at least you pretend to be one) should ever think that way.

But it was a war crime done by the winning side so it doesn't matter, right?

US and UK/Canadian soldiers did A LOT of war crimes after they had landed in France, all the way down to the Elba river. But not many historians acknowledge that. It is only the Germans who were war criminals. No one would ever argue that the Nazi regime was evil and did a lot of mass murders and genocide and you name it. Let's just be fair - sick people existed on both sides of the front.

'Romania supported the wining side'. Sorry, do you have another alternative of staying alive when being bordered by two of the most evil regimes ever imagined to humankind? Romania was forced to give up national territory to Russia, Bulgaria and Hungary via ultimatums and Diktate. Romania was a max 20 million people country, not even close to a 'power' and couldn't defend itself. The Western powers, who previously guaranteed Romania's borders, were crumbling in front of the mighty german war machine and were not able by any means to respect their previous guarantees. Russia was ammassing armies at our eastern border to further steal parts of our country. Do you think that we teamed up with the germans because we loved them so much? But I would rather preffer to be a german satellite than a bolshevik one. We always hoped for UK/USA to come here and free us of nazis and after the communists had taken power, of communists. None of that ever happened. You left us at the mercy of a cruel communist dictator, as well as the whole Eastern Europe. But regardless of that you will always find the Romanian hearts and souls longing for freedom and democracy. Check today's issues - you will find Romania as one of the most constant supporters of the USA - we agreed to use our resources (including an extensive intelligence network in Middle East built years ago, during the communist era) together with the USA hoping to fend off this terrible thing the terrorism is. I think Uncle Sam will find Romania as a far more reliable ally than a lot of other Euro countries.

We are an Orthodox Christian country and we've been here, defending the gates of Europe against countless barbarians and muslims, for thousands of years. We fought with pride, sometimes we won, sometimes we lost, but we never gave up. Unfortunately we were too few ... And you come and tell me that 'we supported whatever flag that was winning' ? Sorry my friend, we do not have thousands of miles of water between us and the dangers out there.

You're talking about the descendants of mighty romans, a holy cross defending country and you should be proud of your romanian ancestors (you told me you had some romanian roots).

Try to respect the history in the first place as we all respect yours. And before throwing accusations try to put yourself in the accused's skin first.

[ July 29, 2005, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[zappsweden]

My, oh my. What an intense discussion we have here.

Replies? Rambo?

[roqf77]

rambo your an idiot!

[roqf77]

sorry that was a bit much. the fact is the majority if not all of the people killed at dresyden were civillians. hitlers willing executioners, a study on german civilans in ww2 puts the number who had direct knowledge of the war crimes at about 100k. In a country of 60 million plus? what are you saying exactly? all germans were nazi's?

[Avatar]

You're all amateurs of history, with the possible exception of HR. Where'd you guys pick up this garbage you call 'facts' anyways? How many books have you people read on the subject of WWII, 1 or 2? Because I've read around 50. To any peruser of this website, please ignore what you read, it's for entertainment value only.

[Avatar]

Besides, this subject is far too complicated and deep to be discussed in a chat forum. Go read a real book, you'll actually learn something for real (provided it's a good book)