"HISTORICITY MOD version 1.1" updated with new changes and for use with SC 1.05

[Genghis]

JerseyJohn -

Oh I totally agree. There is a good book called "The last Great Victory" written by Stanley Weintraub and he goes over the last months of the war beginning in May/June 1945 or so.

There is no doubt the US wanted USSR out of the Pacific but in 1941-42 I think the US probably wanted Soviet assistance in the Far East especially when Doolittle ran his raid over Japan.

I'm not sure the Allies knew just how of a pain Stalin was to deal with in the early war years but when the Red Army began sweeping Eastern Europe, Stalin was insisting on more and more spoils including access rights into the Med from Turkey.

Yes Operation Olympic would have been a bloodbath if it had gone through. The fighting in Saipain, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa proved that.

Also not many people know too that Japan was in the process of working on an A-bomb themselves (with help from German technicians). When Germany surrendered, the Allies managed to find some heavy metals and components being shipped to Japan in Uboats.

Also I don't doubt that Japan would have used A-bombs themselves if they had them against the US if invasion of the Home Islands were imminent.

Konstantin - Aye, I remember also reading somewhere too about debunking the myth of Waffen SS units eliteness in battle.

Waffen SS units were actually counterproductive as military units.

They always got the best equipment and their TO&E (Tables of Organization & Equipment) usually had extra companies or battalions assigned to them than regular Heer formations.

It was certainly a drain on the regular Wermacht formations.

Also just because a unit happened to be Waffen SS it didn't necessarily mean it was good. There were a ton of worthless SS units being created towards the end of the war.

I could also go on talking about those silly Luftwaffe field divisions (Goering's darling idea) but don't want to digress any further

[ December 30, 2002, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[Compassion]

Originally posted by Genghis:

Also just because a unit happened to be Waffen SS it didn't necessarily mean it was good. There were a ton of worthless SS units being created towards the end of the war.

Well, there were usually excellent troops in any Waffen SS div (varying of course by when we are talkinagbabout... perhaps I should say better than average), but the leadership was all over the place since it was handed out as political patronage.

[ December 30, 2002, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]

[SeaWolf_48]

JJ I've come to respect your comments on this site very much. You know your history and I love the way you incorporate pic into your messages. I have observed in my War Book Library that OB West in France and on the Estern Front the German High Command designated a Corps SS if it had one or two SS Divisions in it. Several of my books on WW2 confirm this. The Eastern front had the 1stSS and 2ndSS Corps in many of it's battles during 1943 and on. In the west the 1SS and 2SS Corps fought in Normandy and the XIIISS and XIVSS Corps fought in the Battle of the Bulge. Maybe SC could incorporate these Corps into the game?

Just one humble gamers poor observation.

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by GroupNorth:

. . .

His company was assaulted by elements of one of the Hitler Jungen SS divisions in Normandy, and he told a wild story about how some of his mates, after being captured and stripped to their underwear, overpowered (all fists flying) some of these heavily armed teenagers. Many of them were already vets from Russia.

Crazy, crazy stuff.[/QB]

---

Sorry I read across this gem of yours earlier, it was lodged between two much longer posts. Yes, very crazy and very interesting indeed! Would love to hear more of the details. An uncle of mine also fighting in France and Germany said at first they used to let the younger ones go till they recognized their corpses farther on and they began keeping them as POWs rather than kill them later. He was talking about kids of eleven-twelve-and thirteen. A rough guy, a longshorman on postwar Brooklyn/Manhattan docks but his eyes watered when he told me about that. I was ten at the time.

[Genghis]

Compassion -

Aye I was just really trying to say that SS units overall were a mixed bag of troops ranging from elite to downright unreliable.

I agree with you that several SS formations which fought in Russia were no doubt hardend troops and that in general all the German NCO's were quite an experienced lot.

Course on the Russian front, the Waffen SS couldn't expect any quarter given by the Russians (and vice versa) so it's not surprising they fought to the last man in most cases which invariably contributed to their individual toughness.

[ December 30, 2002, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[JerseyJohn]

SeaWolf_48

Thanks for the good word. By the last two years of the war there's no doubt in my mind the SS would form neatly into corps both on the Eastern and Western Fronts.

Himmler was no longer looking for a comparatively small elite but a large independant army under his own control.

Goering, incredibly, had similar designs taking retrained ground crews and forming them into special luftwaffe field divisions, which was a poor idea overall because many of those men already had trained specialties such as radio, mechanic, fueler, and now they were all being reorganized as infantry, but Goering didn't want his personnel serving as radiomen in either the wehrmacht or Waffen SS, he wanted them under his own control (The Hermann Goering Panzer Division, for example, what sense did that make?).

Like yourself, I think the game would become more interesting with these diversified units and possibly they could have unique characteristics or differences, abilities, but it's already been suggested quite a few times. The answer has always been it isn't possible within the present game parameters and to be honest, as the game is currently set up I'm sure they're right.

If you want to start a forum on this I'd be glad to post there and add photos, etc.. It would be an interesting topic. My own personal view is that the Waffen SS weren't necessarily an elite, but they were highly motivated, highly trained, very well equipped and usually their units were at or near full stregnth, which made them always very formidable in combat. I think one of the weaknesses, especially early in the war, was a tendancy toward often reckless bravery that resulted in too many casualties.

Off the battle field I think they were too often killing people and, though many of them weren't murderers, the majority has always carried that stigma. All the more unfortunate as toward the end of the war so many of them were conscripts, a large percentage from nations other than Germany.

But by 1943 and '44 such SS corps would doubtlessly have represented Germany's strongest and in some cases most crack units.

SeaWolf, start the forum. I'm sure many others will contribute and I know I will for sure.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

The Best way to get'SS' Troops in SC is to take the units that get to about 3 experience and rename them '10th SS' Corps.

[JerseyJohn]

Genghis

First off I love that phrase, "those silly luftwaffe field units!" That should have been their official designation -- what the hell were they about. Cooks, radiomen, skilled mechanics, reassign them were they're needed, don't turn them into infantrymen! Goering was one of the best generals the Allies had (at least one guy will inform me Goering was German!)

"Also I don't doubt that Japan would have used A-bombs themselves if they had them against the US if invasion of the Home Islands were imminent."

Sure they would have but I don't think their project ever got off the ground. By 43-44-45 it was too late to develop and build one. What they had instead was enough Beubonic Plague stashed away in Manchuria to kill, at the very least, everyone in North America.

During the war Japan kept sending ballons across the Pacific Rim penetrating into the Canadian and Northwest U. S. forest areas. Fortunately only a handful of American civilians, a few children in the tally, were killed by the explosives that were carried. Untill recent years this was seen as a failed domorilization attack. It wasn't. The Japanese wanted to see where Americans and Canadians were being killed by the charges so they'd have a better idea how to employ the germ warfare that was their true ace in the hole. They'd also perfected means of dispersing infected fleas using conventional bombs.

As the war ended, secret agreements were made between Japan and the U. S. government in which Japanese Germ warfare knowledge was surrendered to the U. S. in return for special concessions that are still largely secret. Otherwise, there would have been war crimes trials in Japan beyond what was taking place in Germany at the time. In reality only a handful of leading Japanese were held responsible and the Emperor remained on the throne, a figurehead behind Douglas MacArthur's administration.

Japanese attrocities and inhumanity both against POWs, European civilians and the Chinese population were deliberately played down by the U. S. after the war. Which was awkward because while the war was going on Americans were shown hundreds of images of beheadings and captives being used for bayonet practice.

This is still a sensitive subject in many places and still being covered over.

[Genghis]

JerseyJohn -

Oh yes Japanese atrocities in WWII...sigh..we could devote another forum topic on that

Agreed....Japan pretty much off scott free. A lot of their dirty work got swept under the rug and forgotten by the Chinese Civil War, US containment of USSR, and macArthur's admin.

My family lived in Shanghai(in the French section) during the 30's and my mother saw them marching into the city. Hmmm and the French there didn't resist much at all.

Well at least in Shanghai, the Japanese behaved themselves. No need to talk about how the army was pretty brutal and sadistic elsewhere.

A good friend of mine lost several relatives in those "civilian internment camps" in Dutch East Indies run by the Japanese.

it's just unfortunate that that Japanese atrocities (which rivaled those of Germany) still haven't received more attention in Western media.

The Chinese and other Asians just weren't lucky enough to have a Simon Wiesanthal type person to pursue Japanese war criminals.

By the way, does anyone if it's true that the new Japanese history text books are indeed glossing over their country's involvement in WWII?

I'd go ballistic if their text books are saying that they were the victims of WWII due to the A- bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[ December 31, 2002, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[Genghis]

Oh by the way, I tweaked dgaad's historicity 1939 campaign mod a bit mainly in the naval portions of his setup.

I just wanted to add a little more intensity and uncertainty as reflected in the U-Boat campaigns.

In the current campaign setting 2 Uboats in the North Atlantic never really last past turns 2 or 3 and the Uboat campaign seems to end there.

Send me and email if you'd like a copy: leopardson@spininternet.com

Here is what I added though I won't disclose where the Uboats are:

Germany

1)Added BB Bismarck (Str 4) in Kiel. Bismark was already laid down and launched by 1939. It just had to wait until mid 1940 to be fully commissioned. I left it at str 4 so germany can upgrade it which should be around 1940. Tirpitz is considered part of this.

2)Added BB Graf Spee (Str 8) somewhere in the southern portion of the map. I originally made this ship a Cruiser (str 8) but changed it to BB for more staying power. Though the Graf Spee really should be classified as an fast armored cruiser.

3)Added 4 additional Uboats (str 12) somewhere at sea. I also moved the starting locations for the original 2 subs (str 12).

4)Added 1 Uboat (Str 7) in kiel as well.

France

1)added CV Bearn (str 4). Historically this ship was operational by 1939 but never had a chance to participate in a lot of naval operations. I just threw it in for fun.

I realize that historically, Germany never fielded this many subs in 1939 but in all the games against an Axis AI, the AI never builds any naval assets so this really helps.

Anyways, I played the opening campaign 3 times now with this setup just to see how the new naval aspects worked.

I'm certainly more pleased with it now than with the normal campaign setup. The Allies now have to seriouly guard their transports or risk losing them big time.

The Allies should feel a little more the strain this time around.

[ December 31, 2002, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[JerseyJohn]

Genghis

RE Japan: Decades after the fact there was a movement in Japan to have China say it's all in the past, etc., and the Chinese wouldn't go along with it. That was something like fifty years after the atrocities. Nobody knows how many Chinese were killed for no apparent reason, but estimates start at 15,000,000!

RE Internment camps: A lot of people don't get it, don't seem to understand they didn't just put those civilians up for the war, they mistreated the elderly, the sick the very young and even used them as slave labor and many of them died. They weren't guests of the Emperor!

The tweaking looks good. I started one as well and am still working on it. We have similar ideas regarding the German fleet. I wanted to include the pocket battleships also and distinguish them from Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. -- I made the Graf Spee a full stregnth cruiser in the South Atlantic, as you have, made the other two full stregnth cruisers in the Baltic (one was in the North Atlantic and returned to Germany with a captured freighter, but in this game it would never make it and would just be sunk, so it's in the Baltic. The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, though carrying 11" guns, were in excess of 35,000 tons and designed for 15" weaponry which they kept intending to install, but never did. So I made each of them half-stregnth BBs. Placed Bismark in East Prussia at 3 str pts, Tirpitz at Keil at 2 str pts. Additionally, Germany launched two aircraft carriers in 1938, The Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser. The Strasser saw some limited service by neither was ever fully completed. I have both sitting in the Baltic at 1 stregnth point each. I don't think that's gamy as Germany has it's ships but needs to finish them, as was the case in '39 -- it's only complete warships are the 3 Armored Cruisers/Pocket Battleships of 11,000 tons with six 11"guns -- though slow for the class at 28 knots I think it's safe to say they qualify for cruiser status!

Would be honored to peruse your additions to dgaads mod. jpdellove@aol.com

In my version I need to add some warships to the British Fleet to maintain balance. In your version I think the additional U-Boats are excessive. Also, the Atlantic is the poor relation in SC and needs a great deal of revision.

As close as those land masses are to Europe my father would have bumped into England on several of his more outlandish fishing trips -- instead he had water in all directions with no land in sight -- he was one of these guys who got in a row boat and headed for parts unknown with his trusty outboard. When I was very young and didn't realize a person could drown out there, I went with him all the time and thught it was fun to see real ships, not puny boats, speeding past with sailors laughing and waving at us. It also seemed like fun to be rocking in the passing ship swells. When I was twelve someone on a passing ship shouted "You crazy bastards ain't dead yet!" and his buddies were laughing and giving us thumbs up signs. That was when I realized our true peril. Almost nobody went fishing with my dad because finding a way back to shore was his little secret! These days daredevils are crossing the Atlantic in dhingys -- if my dad were around I'm sure he'd have gotten a kick out watching them.

[ December 31, 2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Genghis]

JerseyJohn -

Ok will send you the file. I know the number of Uboats are excessive at start but the Allies should have no trouble hunting them down even with their starting forces..it just takes a little longer in game terms now but it feels more like a battle for the North Atlantic.

Good call on the German Carriers. I was hedging myself. In the end I didn't include them just because Goering didn't want to give the Navy planes and pilots. So the Graf Zepplin just sat in dry dock with no planes.

Say does anyone know if you can add forces to Russia and Italy to the 1939 scenario without activating them? I want to add an HQ to Soviet start pool and maybe another cruiser to Italy.

In regards to Japan, they probably didn't keep a lot of records unlike the Germans who loved making copies. Thus making it harder to find those "smoking guns"

Unfortunately, we'll never know just how many people died under Japanese occupation but it's for somewhere in the millions.

It's sad that US policy after the war absolved Japan from paying any reparations to victims (a lot of whom are all slowly dieing off now).

[JerseyJohn]

Genghis

"Say does anyone know if you can add forces to Russia and Italy to the 1939 scenario without activating them? I want to add an HQ to Soviet start pool and maybe another cruiser to Italy."

Thanks for the good word. According to JayJay_H, the Peter Strasser did have naval pilots and saw limited action. He's a reliable source and I've always trusted his postings.

No way to get into neutral OBs unless your name is Hubert Cater.

Two images of the Aircraft Carriers Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser provided by our friend in Germany, JayJay_H

[ December 31, 2002, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Genghis]

JerseyJohn

Ah nice pics. What sources does he use? I'd love to find out. Does he get stuff straight from the Bundesarchiv? The German navy always fascinated me.

I always wanted to write a book on the U-Boat operations in the Far East but needed better source material. Germany and Japan really never cooperated in WWII, but Germany did use Japanese bases in Dutch East Indies for their UBoat operations.

I mainly use Conway's All the Worlds Fighting Ships 1922-1945 as my resource for ships. Conway's comes in 4 volumes and well worth the price. It's published in the UK.

I tried sending you the mod file a couple of times to your email address but it keeps getting bounced back as address invalid. The file size is only 233KB so that's not the issue. I'll try to send it again

[ December 31, 2002, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[JerseyJohn]

Genghis --

Sorry, I mispelled my own name and wasn't even drinking yet! The e-mail is jpdellova@aol.com

I don't know what JayJay's sources are. He should be contributing again soon; I believe he's on a vacation now. I'm taking the liberty of copying his entries on the two German aircraft carriers. The entries are buried in an obscure forum that won't be resurrected so I'm sure he won't object.

The following accounts of the German Aircraft Carriers Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser were originally posted by JayJay_H and have been copied to this posting.

"Graf Zeppelin was launched on December 8, 1938. When WWII broke out in September 1939, the carrier was 85% complete. Works however would be soon delayed and then halted in order to build badly needed submarines which had proved to be the most effective asset in the hands of the Kriegsmarine. Towed to Gotenhafen first and then to Stettin, the carrier was deprived of her 15cm guns (became coastal batteries in Norway) and used as a floating warehouse. On May 13, 1942 Hitler ordered the carrier completed and the Zeppelin was towed back to Kiel where works resumed seven months later.

According to the builder, the carrier would be ready for sea trials in late 1943 but on January 30, 1943, Hitler suddenly decided to decommission all large surface units and the Zeppelin would never be completed. In April 1943, Zeppelin was again towed to Stettin where she was scuttled on April 25, 1945 to prevent capture by the Soviets. However the Russians did refloat the carrier in 1946, loaded her with war booty and in 1947 towed her to Leningrad.

"Graf Zeppelin class fleet aircraft carriers - The nearly identical 'Peter Strasser'

"Peter Strasser had a short career. In the year between her sister's first appearance and her own, the "Happy Time" of easy German naval successes had passed, and the production of Allied warships had far surpassed the ability of the Germans to keep up. Peter Strasser's aircraft fought the Soviet Navy and scored multiple hits on the battlecruiser Tretij Internacional in the Baltic. When the Strasser headed North with the main German battlefleet to intercept a Murmansk-bound convoy, the Allied fleet was ready. Good Allied air cover prevented Strasser's aircraft from approaching the convoy, so they had to attack the nearest Allied ship or turn back. The ship below was a strange configuration of carrier deck and large gun turrets, and was reported by the German pilots as the Dutch Molucca. Though similar in appearance to the Dutch ships, these were actually the British Lion class of hybrid battleships with a more powerful armament and better armor, but with slightly fewer aircraft. The encounter ended in defeat for the Germans, and the damaged, planeless, and retreating Strasser could neither outfight nor outrun the British hybrids. In a sinking condition when the Lion caught up to her, the Strasser was sunk by 16" shells at point-blank range."

[ January 01, 2003, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Genghis]

JerseyJohn

well if it was Dom Perignon you were drinking...save me some :cool:

Ok sent you the file again

wow great info...I didn't even know about the Peter Strasser. Conway's only mentioned a "B" sister class ship that was broken up in 1940 and that the Seydlitz was to be converted to a light carrier in late 1942 but the conversion stopped in 1943.

[ January 01, 2003, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[JerseyJohn]

Genghis

I lost track very early of what I was drinking but whatever it was I enjoyed it. The finer wines and champaigns are all well and good, but my idea of mixing is a good Irish or Scotch whiskey half filling a shot glass, no ice, no water, no soda, and some sad songs in the background! Hope you enjoyed yours as well and managed to avoid the accomanying hangover -- vodka is the mildest, wine is the worst. Tomatoe juice is effective on all of them.

Glad you enjoyed the info. I have to state once more that it wasn't my own, but a contribution to another forum by JayJay_H . With the scholarly group, including yourself, we've been attracting lately, I'm sure his return appearance will bring things to an even higher quality level. He posts a lot of great stuff.

As you know, received your scenario. And as you also know the sceanario thing is more difficult than it at first appears. But your first effort was a damn site better than the ones I created and I'm sure they will progress steadily. I'd recommend putting your next scenario entry on Carl von Mannerheim's Scenario Forum. My special project is there along with several others and Carl lists his new ideas on it. It's back on top again as I just posted there and it's good to have related items in one place.

Meanwhile I'm awarding you the first annual Rampaging Torpedo Trophy for the period ending 12/31/02. They were even exploding in my coffee! The companion Trophy, Rockets over Europe! Goes to one JerseyJohn for a scenario he made but will never show anyone as Germany had L5 Rockets from the start and three units of them. In self-defense I wanted to see what they were capable of. The answer is, when fully developed and used properly, quite a bit!

And they make a nice sound leaving their launchers.

[ January 02, 2003, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Genghis]

JerseyJohn

What you don't like torpedoes in your coffee in the morning? To paraphrase Col Kilgor in "Apocalypse Now" : "I love the smell of coffee in the morning. It tastes like victory!"

Hehe thanks for the award!

well at least those Uboats kept you on your toes and stressed you out much like the actual UK counterparts.

Agreed that there is probably no good fix for the Atlantic campaign for now so we'll just leave it as is.

I'll tweak the mod again and come up with a saner situation and maybe giving the brits more cruisers to use them as scouting ships.

I found out that the subs will come to you more than likely in my mod so there is no need for scouting as much.

[ January 02, 2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[JerseyJohn]

Genghis

"I found out that the subs will come to you more than likely in my mod so there is no need for scouting as much."

That's for sure, one was in my shower this morning! Which is okay because I'm still ducking my own damn rockets -- old scenarios have a way of haunting a guy.

What I neglected to say was you also added several things I liked -- jeez, just got one of my rockets in my, uh -- and one of your torpedos in my, uh, oh no! ---

Anyway, serious scenario creation is a difficult task and I think you've got a knack for it.

[ January 02, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[japinard]

Ghengis/Jerseyjohn would you mind e-mailing me your edit of dgaad's mod?

It's been a while since I've been here and am about to dig into SC again now that the holiday season is over. Thanks!

jpinard@attbi.com

[JerseyJohn]

japinard

It would be a priveledge. Will do it now, 2:20 a.m. out here, Holy insomnia Batman!

[Genghis]

Japinard - well I just emailed you my torpedo junction mod 1939 myself :cool:

Try both of ours

Enjoy!