Zapp introducing the new standard, the ultimate combination of house rules and bids.

[zappsweden]

SPAIN AND PORTUGAL:

The Spain and Gibraltar Supply is the reason Axis look the way they do in SC. The MASS air fleets in the end-game are the result of all the neutrals providing MPP's for either the Axis or the Allies. Without Spain and Gibraltar, the huge MPP handicap for Russia could be reduced and instead make Axis really get deep into Russia but still have an Allied chance of turning the war.

Spain and Portugal is a part of the map where no counter exist anyway. There is no descent Allied player that go through Spain to get to France. With neutral Spain and Portugal, Axis will not have MPP advantage going into Russia. That will affect the end game enormously and force bids to get lower. Since there is no strategic fighting in Spain or Portugal, there is no loss in excluding them from the game.

BID SYSTEM:

The 1:5:20 and 1:5:30 often mean that Allies very often land in France very early. With the recent "AA Research Forbidden" rules, there is no more the super threat of Axis using R.A.C.K or other strategies of blasting UK to pieces. I therefore think that USA can now be played without bid again and we get a later D-Day plus more "deep Russia" probabilities.

I am here proposing the ultimate SC combination for a much more fun game:

1) DOW+Landing on Major Nation forbidden

2) No side is allowed to DOW Spain or Portugal

3) AA research forbidden

4) Bid system 1:30 (UK+Russia system)

[ December 12, 2004, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Comrade Trapp]

Comrade Trapp seconds Zapp's proposal.

[Curry]

would like to see it tested, Sounds interesting.

[Avatar]

I totally agree. Bidding should be 1:20. I'd test this if I had time!

[Sombra]

IMHO:

Rule Nr.1 1 disagreement: Allies should be allowed to launch surprise attack in Italy. Perhaps the Dow rule could apply to Rusia.

Rule Nr.2: DOn´t know, on the one hand the Axis is always really powerful due to the money on the other hand often there are batlers in Spain+ Vichy to cut of the MP supply of the axis.

Spanish Gambit etc are although not allewd anymore

Rule 3. agreement but hard to control !

Rule Nr.4 disagreement: IMHO the US needs more money not less!!!!

[Dragonheart]

Just adjust your damned bids and dont always claim new rules and new bidding systems. If you are not able to win a game with 250/1250/5000 with allies you should better play axis

@Sombra.... 3 hard to control? It´s a joke isnt it? Simple move the curser over a resource and look at the odds then you know the AA lvl of your opponent.

[Kuniworth]

I'd like to see a more gay system;

7000 Russia MMP would settle the issue.

[Dragonheart]

Hey my gay friend with 250 Bid russia get almost 7000 MPP ....its something arround 6500MPP...

[zappsweden]

By reading the answers, I can see that the Cookie-Cutter strategy is a sore spot for some players

[Dragonheart]

Yep, you realized that each side has its prefered strategies.

[Terif]

Originally posted by Dragonheart:

Just adjust your damned bids and dont always claim new rules and new bidding systems. If you are not able to win a game with 250/1250/5000 with allies you should better play axis

...

Yep, I totally agree.

New rules only limit the possibilities for both sides. At the moment I can only see 3 necessary/useful rules: No Rome gambit, an AA rule and no landings in Russia.

Everything else solely depends on the preferences of the players and their playing style. As Sombra already remarked: there will often be heavy and important battles at the spanish border, in Spain and near Gibraltar - at least between two good players with staying powers . Making Spain/Portugal neutral, only limits the possible strategies for D-day and the following turns.

To balance a scenario so both sides have the chance to turn the tide several times and during a long time, you only need to adjust the bid.

There will never be a balanced scenario or rule set for ALL players. It simply depends on the experience of the players (e.g. new players still can play the original 39 scenario without bids and often Allies will be in the advantage...for average-better players bids around 100-200 in 1:5:20 are also still appropriate...etc.).

Bids always increased with experience and time during the last 2 years. With the improved axis gameplay of the top players now the ´old´ bid size is not high enough for them any more. But that doesn´t mean new rules are necessary, the solution is pretty simple: increase the bid size to an appropriate level and it is balanced again .

[zappsweden]

Since I am taking a break from SC someone pls try these new rules in action and report how it turned out.

[zappsweden]

Once Axis DOW Spain, Gibraltar is a lost case anyway. Practically no one lands with USA in Spain and wins the game, unless Axis is very weak.

"Important battles at the Spanish border" - I only see a cookie-cutter attack on the Spain armies followed by taking Madrid and nothing to stop it.

Concerning Gibraltar. After Axis DOW Spain the only thing Allies can do is trying to cut-off supply in Morocco nothing more.

I would like to be given a single situation where Spain/Portugal is interesting counter for Allies.

[ December 10, 2004, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[DalmatiaPartisan]

1. no axis DOW on Spain

2. no Rome Gambit and no Russia landing after DOW

3. no more gay-talks in this forum(Kuni stop ICQ me-I m really not interested in skinny bold gay)

[zappsweden]

"no axis DOW on Spain" means Allies have a bullet proof way of taking Portugal and then load up with HQ and armies/tanks, DOW Spain and take Madrid in a sweep withot Axis having any say in it. Might be good, dunno.

[zappsweden]

This is "Anti-Cookie-Cutter 2004" folks

[zappsweden]

Are legends often right predicting the Major issues (sorry Nostradamus you would not even be on this list )?

Rambo predicted FOW sniffers -> FOW sniffing was found to be possible

Rambo invented a Rome invasion -> Rome invasion now forbidden (house rule)

Zappsweden predicted that 1:8 system was too weak for Russia and turned UK into a gambit nation -> ppl now use much higher bids for Russia (and Spain Gambit disappeared)

Zappsweden predicted that AA Bug was a big upset -> AA is now forbidden (House rules)

[Kuniworth]

this thread is mega gay

[jon_j_rambo]

Spain is a joke, the Fritz takes it over in two turns. The Germans were good at killing unarmed sleeping farmers.

The United States needs changed in SC. We should be given increased MMPs the longer the game goes on. 180 MMPs is an absolute joke. US Air Force trashed the Fritz, add a half dozen long range bombers & fighters.

[jon_j_rambo]

USA/UK needs supply to change the game! N.Africa is a joke, Spain, Naval supply, etc. Change the supply connections of Spain.

"Do you know what this is Wolfgang? This is a cake! The Americans have the fuel & ships to bring fresh cake across the Atlantic while my Panzers run dry." --- Col. Hessler speaking to some bunta in the movie classic, The Battle of the Bulge.

[jon_j_rambo]

USA needs supply in the game!

"Horses! You have horses! You made me come all the way overhere for this? Haven't you ever heard of General &*@$%^^^ Motors?" --- Yankee Legend to defeated Krout General.

[zappsweden]

Another thing I just realised is that with Spain+Portugal neutral we finally could get the Siberians into the game for real (since Axis goes deeper into a low-bid weaker Russia).

[Iron Ranger]

New rules only limit the possibilities for both sides. At the moment I can only see 3 necessary/useful rules: No Rome gambit, an AA rule and no landings in Russia.

Wrong... I feel there could be a much better system of House Rules for a even 'historical' game (the bid system suck I feel). But as has been pointed out before this is a strategy game based on history, not a Historical game with some strategy.

Everything else solely depends on the preferences of the players and their playing style

Yea, this is normally true. If someone feels a certian explote is ruining thier experiance then they will wish to change it.

[Terif]

@ Iron Ranger:

Yes, to create a more historical game or if you want the players to use a certain strategy you surely need other house rules. So there is nothing wrong with using the house rules you prefer in your games - like you already do .

But to have a balanced game that both sides have the same chances to win, with as much available strategies as possible, there are in Fall Weiss ATM only the 3 mentioned rules necessary + an appropriate bid.

If you want a more historical game or think you need additional limits/rules to increase the fun for you, just do it when your opponent agrees - additional rules fully depend on your preferences how you want to play the game and how you like it. Alternatively you can also use different scenarios for the fun games.

[zappsweden]

IMO, house rules are not only about the Axis vs Allies balance but the shape of the war. The more MPP's in the game, the thicker front lines (Russia have massive amount of units due to the nowadays huge bids) and the more air units will be active. Reducing the 800+ MPP to ~700 by removing some area of the map can only be for the better. If Spain and Portugal still was a battle I would not suggest removing them from play.

However, even with Spain and Portugal missing the impact hence the importance of Egypt and Iraq is still vital for Axis success. My proposals are just a downscale of the enormous 6000 MPP Handicap games.