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SC Community is dying


Dragonheart

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I'm still here I guess. >shrug<

Like some other people upthread, I haven't played

a game of SC in months. Yes I suppose I could get

involved in the H vs. H realm, but there are a few

reasons why I don't

1. Most of my MP time is being devoted to Nascar

Racing 2003...

2. Yes, the AI is a pushover, but at maximum

help settings the game becomes hugely annoying

and unbalanced having to overcome the AI's

advantages in units [MPPs] and/or experience.

3. It is my wholly personal belief that the SC

game system, while not exactly broken, has a whole

host of problems, and I find house rules a

necessary evil, at best, and a pain in the patootie

at worst. Plus you can't possibly devise enough

house rules to cover every contingency, and often

they create imbalances of their own, such as "No

transports in winter"-so I can't ship troops over

to England from the US in January?

4. Because of said problems, I am leery of getting

involved in a MP game, only to have some

unexpected ahistorical and/or gamey strategy

sprung on me. I don't mind what-ifs, but I DO

mind what-ifs which are fantasies. [and 10

German air units in 1942 IS a fantasy]

**************

As for the forum, the time to discuss wishes and

any desired improvements is pretty much over. I've

made my feelings on the air problem [no hard limits:

instead a law of diminishing returns for

exponentially-increasing investment] and the

Battle of the Atlantic [bigger ocean: NO sea zones,

and shipping routes visible on map and subject to

interdiction], plus various other issues, quite

clear. Now it is just a game of wait and see

what Hubert finally decides to do.

John DiFool

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Les

The term Political Rant is very bad and far from engaging endlessly in these things I don't believe it describes a single post I've ever made. Unless that means posting something that had something to do with the people on the forum and their rights to express themselves. Which is not political, it's social. If we're talking about social discussions then fine, I've engaged in them. A rant describes a moronic line pursued by someone who doesn't make sense. As I've always extended the courtessy of not referring to either your posts or anyone elses in those terms I expect the reciprical of not having mine described that way.

I'm glad I probably don't fit in the political rant category. I'm also glad that I don't know of anyone who does.

You're describing only one kind of posting that should be acceptable, and that's purely game oriented. Which means 95% of the posts that are here, historical and everything else would not have been posted and the average member would have come here around five or six times and forgotten about the place; as I've done with other sites where the only Topics start and end with "How I beat Meade at Gettysburg and won the Civil War for the South!" To me that's the sort of thing that gets boring and does so in light speed, as you say.

There's a very simple reason why I don't post things about the game, tanks, ships and aircraft. I've already started dozens of topics along those lines. Literary DOZENS! They draw some responses, sometimes a lot of responses, then drop for a while, resurface, then get swallowed in past pages. Sooner or later someone starts the identical Topic, I smirk but usually don't comment because it's basically a waste of time. I used to put in a link to the earlier Thread, others and my own, but have stopped doing so because even that gets a bit tiring.

But all in all you've made me see what a titanic waste this whole thing is so I'll leave with my few thousand political rants and pursue something more constructive. I mean more constructive in terms of my own life, which doesn't advance very far by commenting on someone else's game and a community who's memory doesn't go very far beyond it's own nose.

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As originally posted by JP Wagner:

Didn't CVM once recommend a PENG sticky thread for all non SC related topics for SC forum members to use?...What ever came of that idea?...it most certainly would have helped

Yes, that would be a good idea, but apparently we are only allotted 2 slim and finite slots on this here SC board.

Yah, yah, the General Forum is just too big and too damned unruly.

No chance to "get to know" many of the folks, or develop some sort of ongoing dialogue... without having 22 or more! moon-addled goons jumping yer bones for no good reason other than... they CAN. :eek:

I already went through all that Herbert Spencer sort of "survival of the fittest" juke & jive... back in the day, and don't go rip-tripping here & there looking for more... UNECESSARY conflict.

And besides, they would just hump-up all Carnal and eat me alive, and I am just too-too aesthetic-sensitive for that, etc, etc. LOL!

Better to be eaten-up by your own Kind than some sloppily salivating Stranger... ;)

...by the way, speaking of Missing in Action, where has Aloid gone?...he was one of the biggest supporters of SC...
Indeed he was, and I had the pleasure of playing several PBEM games with him... a charming and courteous and completely up-beat kind of guy... my understanding is that he was utterly overwhelmed by a demanding Job and his dedication to his young & growing family, which is surely understandable... do wish he would look in every now and then and make a post or two, though. smile.gif
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As originally posted by JerseyJohn:

The term Political Rant is very bad and far from engaging endlessly in these things I don't believe it describes a single post I've ever made.

I would most certainly agree.

JJ, don't be put off by any of this interesting but rambling commentary... your input has been... delightful and stimulating, and has helped to make this board well worth visiting. :cool:

I don't think Les the Sarge, 9-1 (... and I too first imagined that this moniker referred to some sort of Commonwealth artillery piece... sorry Sarge, but... it's Sgt Kelso after all! ...whom I also had great fun sending into those hexed fire-lanes in that old board game... right along with Spec4 Immer, 5-2!!) ...was referring specifically to you... rather, some of those gutless boy-wonders and spittle-flecked Chicken-Hawks over on the General Forum, yes?

Anyway, he can speak for himself... hang in there JJ... there's yet... much to do! ;)

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Immer

Thanks and appreciated, as always -- and finally, after all this time, a clue as to what Immer derives from!

My gripe isn't with Les , as is readily apparent I genuinely like him, my gripe is with the fragmenting of SC into slots, each of which is intolerant of the other slots! We need to avoid that.

Upon further reflection I realize we have had a few people who would qualify for his Political Rant list, people like EB, who turned everything into pro-Communist rhetoric and more specifically pro-Stalinist nonsense. His nemises, dgaad, by responding with his own long radical right wing rebuffs often put himself in that category as well, but they are about the only two. Anyway, I dislike the whole political rant insinuation from A-Z as pertains SC. As you say, if it's applied to the General Forum, and if that's the context Les meant it in, then I'd have to agree, they do behave that way over there.

Regarding the General Forum, Immer, you've got to carefully select which of their Threads to post in. I've been doing that for months now, posting in history oriented threads and things on social issues I care about, such as why people commit suicide, and have yet to see any of the mindless static I came across in my earlier ventures there.

Actually, at this point I feel very at home there and consider many of it's members to be among my best virtual friends. The bad part is, all of this online relationship sets up a weird netherworld category of people one knows but will never meet. I suppose it isn't that odd or even over knew, but it still seems a bit eerie to me even now.

Perhaps my responses to Les seem a bit abrasive, like many others I guess I'm caught up in the recent SC events and a bit edgy and a little overly defensive. I find the Political Rant term irritating because I'm not a Political person, have avoided any mention of personal politics in my something over three thousand posts, and have never sought any political ties at SC, or anywhere else, so to me the whole use of that word takes on very hostile connotations that I don't care for.

No doubt Les means it in other ways that I'm not seeing. Basically, to me one post is like another whether it's discussing a weapon type, a kind of move, or yesterday's weather. I just don't like separating things into categories and then deciding what belongs and what doesn't. The membership does a good job of deciding that on it's own.

[ October 02, 2003, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:

I want you to understand JJ I don't think of you as being an obnoxious poster, only interested in ranting endlessly about nothing other than the latest political hot topic.

Are you talking about Jersey John??????

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Too funny Les!

Here's an example of what I would consider a Jersey John rant:

Very interesting point you make.

Ouch!!! I can feel the pain.

Get real!

Jersey John may not like administrators, but to his fellow posters he has dished out buckets of courteous and encouraging comments. A lot of newbies would not be posting here today if JJ didn't make them feel that they were welcome by complimenting their posts and thanking them for contributing.

Maybe you got him mixed up with me? It's happened before ya know. :D

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Jim

Thanks and appreciated, I don't know where Les got that from but if that's his image of me, well, so be it.

Naturally that image does not describe you either, so that can't be the source of confusion.

As for being mixed up with you, it was a priveledge sharing that exile with a gentleman of your calibre. I hear some of the bottles we tossed have finally washed up on distant shores and rescue parties were sent out. :D

[ October 02, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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Kurt

Never thought of you as a newbie even on that first Great post.

Thanks, appreciated as always and what is turning into an unsought, though nontheless heartwarming, testimonial has me sorry for saying the community's memory only goes out to it's nose. If that's the case, perhaps what I overlooked is the SC membership is a sort of Cyrano or Pinocchio with a very long appendage! ;)

[ October 02, 2003, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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just an observation from one who has been around since the game was released. Back in my day (apx. 18 months ago) I remember the anticipation that was genertated with the then upcoming release of the game. The morning it was to be released was further delayed for a few hours. At that time, I was by my own estimation one of the first 15 people to order it. The forum at that time was made up of people who were very excited about what the game offered. Given time, the people on the forum changed to those who wanted mere out of the game. Then after about 4 months the board seemed to die out. It even prompted me to start a new thread asking where everybody went. A few months later (late 02) the board came back to life, and the whole competition thing started. In summary, it appears that this board follows a cycle. It may be in a valley now but more then likely from my vantage point will become active again.

Only my two cents worth.

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Back in my day (apx. 18 months ago) I remember the anticipation that was generated with the then upcoming release of the game.
Hail Esquire! Ah the memories of those long ago days. I've seen so many things come and go in cycles on this forum since Spring 2002. It's always useful to keep things in perspective.
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This explanation is as fitting now as it was in Sept. 02.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FWIW, I'll offer an observation. The tug of war between the beer&pretzels crowd demanding fun and the grognards demanding historical accuracy has been going on since April, since before the demo was released. The former group, having beaten the game several times with L5 jets in 1942 and other such fantastic feats, is probably getting bored and either looking for entertainment elsewhere or beginning to reconsider some of those silly "historical accuracy" issues to make the game more interesting. The grognards were obviously frustrated from the beginning and have seen some but not enough changes to make the game more "realistic." And Hubert has been focused exclusively on gameplay fixes and TCP/IP, and hasn't provided any guidance on which way the game will evolve because he doesn't know himself yet. So we must wait and wonder, and that leads to more frustration and sometimes a few bitter debates. Accordingly, some of the grognards have grown weary and either gone into lurker mode or abandoned the forum (to be replaced by new grognards to refight the old battles!)

It's almost too funny. I've often put SC in perspective by noting that 3R evolved since 1974 through 4 editions, then morphed into A3R and several updates of that over all these YEARS. SC has now been out less than 2 MONTHS. We need to be patient. It should evolve into a much better game as time goes on, by offering more realism and historical accuracy without compromising the fun and replayability that it offers now.

"courtsey of Bill Macon"

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Hmm I am concerned people think I am specifically singling them out.

I have not done that as of yet. That can be taken only one way I hope, I have not yet intentionally insulted anyone on this thread. I hope no insult has been preceived.

Political Rant. Ok let me define exactly what I meant by a "political rant".

Something pertaining to (insert nation here) and their current behaviour here (insert geographical region here) as of the last year or more recent, even yesterday. Or some specific event that has only recently happened ie the most obvious being 9/11.

I know I can't speak on these topics and remain civil. And I have not yet met anyone else that could either actually. Not online or next door.

These topics only serve to make us angry and incite statements no one benefits from.

I am not seeking to isolate anyone though. I just want people to accept, that politics, ie current politics, can't be discussed without the poster going and getting uncivil.

Can't be done.

So if we turfed politics off of General would General die? No of course not. There just wouldn't be any rants about say the current situation in Iraq to name the most obvious.

What would I like to discuss in General, that is not considered exceptable here. Ok at the risk of giving examples that will get my hand slapped, I will list them (as much as I can think of them)

Wargaming being the easiet I will start there.

Squad Leader

Advanced Squad Leader

Panzer Blitz Panzer Leader Arab Israelis Wars

Third Reich

Advanced Third Reich

World In Flames

A World At War

Anzio

Fortress Europa

Russian Campaign

Russian Front

Up Front

Longest Day

Europa series

Sniper

Assault System

Pacific War

Those are all board games eh

I like to discuss VASL and other software programs that run board games too.

Then there are computer games such as

Panzer General

Allied General

Panzer General 2

People's General

Steel Panthers WW2

Steel Panthers MBT

Steel Panthers WaW

Steel Panthers Mega Campaigns

Older programs like Tanks or V4 Victory series

Combat Mission

Panzer Elite

TOAW

TAO 2

Panzer Commander

Axis And Allies

East Front 2

West Front

Rising Sun

Close Combat

And there might be more

Lets see it ain't just wargaming the moves my world.

War movies

Military Documentaries

Science documentaries

Models both military theme and otherwise.

Anime

Books and the craft of writing

Music

Film in general

Games outside the realm of wargaming such as Worms (always a laugh).

Woodworking

Family stuff (hey I have one and it enters my thinking enough)

And that list was just me. I imagine it could be made longer if everyone contributed to it.

But sadly, it isn't welcome in SC to discuss it, it ain't about the game.

Nothing wrong with that request though.

When I come in here, I generally expect that SC will be the focus. Not the end of the world.

But the general discussions forum, nope, I can't see my list co existing with the political rants. Nothing in it for me.

And frankly, there are dozens of wargaming sites out there that don't mind setting up a dual set up, one for the more in your face aggressive posters, and one where it is assumed, keep it civil or get booted into the other forum.

The reason the SC forums have become sluggish, is because those that were here on day one, have said all there is to be said about the game's design, it's future and what might be good or bad about it.

There comes a time though, when repeating the same material tends to get a little dry.

And that is a problem that just doesn't have a solution.

The new member will come in, and ask a question that makes perfect sense, but the old member will have long tired of discussing that topic.

And the only solution offered at Battlefront, is to basically shut up. Not what I would call an ideal solution though.

The idea that Battlefront can't produce a forum dedicated to the political activist in the crowd, and leave General Discussion for just that, discussions about this and that, but excluding the politically charged topics is silly.

They are making it a choice, nothing more.

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Well said, now I understand what you were getting at earlier.

The General Forum serves some purposes admirably but can't help becoming a Tower of Babel in other respects. I'm very selective about my postings there, partly because most of the topics don't hold great interest for me and partly because I like to be in Threads that have a consistancy from start to finish without random lunatics popping in with some inane remark and not even bothering to reply to responses it provoked.

Some good topics there have been Science Fiction movies and books, medical advances, history subjects and issues along those lines.

At SC I think most topics are pretty much related to the game and don't see much problem in that regard.

I suspect there hundreds of lurkers here but only a few dozen who post at any given time, and perhaps a dozen who consistently post regardless of whether the place is tranquil or in turmoil. About half that number have posted on a near daily basis throughout the past year.

Bill and Esquire are probably right, these things move in cycles. If we all abruptly stopped posting the Forum would eventually be repopulated -- and the worn-out old issues reintroduced as hot new topics. Nobody is essential to it and nobody should either want to be or see themselves in that role.

I have to admit I did think you were singling me out for some odd reason and couldn't understand why, or to what end. These things happen but it was probably just a case of mutual misinterpretations, which also happens.

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I think the Civil War Threads on the GF were excellent.

I have to disagree with Les in that it is quite possible to have non-political Threads on the GF. As JJ has pointed out there have been others as well.

Let me add that it is good to see Shaka back posting. He has demonstrated an excellent knowledge of the WW2 period and has offered a number of viable suggestions to SC.

To Immer:

If you do post on the GF, watch out for some guy named Seanachai. He will want to drag you kicking and screaming into the Peng Challenge Thread He so craves metaphorical imagery. ;)

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may very well get banned for saying this, but at this point, it really doesn't matter to me anymore. So here it goes....

In my opinion, it is the moderators that are responsible for the downfall that we are going thru on the forum. They have been slowly driving this forum into the ground since last June with their absolute enforcement of the rules that are too strict to begin with.

I believe that I would have completely lost interest in SC and this forum a long time ago, if it weren’t for the members on this forum.

Totally agree.

For the past 3 months, we have been losing a lot of our "veteran"/"core" members and I think its because the way this forum is being run. I was talking to JerseyJohn and CC Baxter (both have been here for since the beginning) the night Kuniworth was banned and I think we came to this conclucion (don't quote me on that because it not my place to speak for them).
Feel free Comrade. I stand by what I posted in that thread. In fact this is the thread I hoped Jersey's "Yes The Admins Are Right" thread would turn out to be: a soul searching session by the SC community en masse.

This thread appears to have drawn some of the lurkers who were once Forum regulars out of the darkness e.g. CvM, Jim Boggs and Esquire.

We need you all back, we need your input. Without old hands and new faces this forum will surely die. That would be a great shame.

As for the General Forum, it is just that. The political aspect of it all just turns me off. I want to discuss SC, World War II, wider military history and, most of all, have some fun. At the moment I feel I cannot even begin a thread for fear of it being locked because it does not meet the draconian criteria of the Forum Rules. That should not be the case. We are all here voluntarily and we are all the cumstomers of Battlefront. They should treat us as such.

The banning of Kuniworth was unfair and a knee-jerk reaction the spam-anarchy of the last weeks. What I find hypocritical is that as part of the thread Jersey began about Hitler's health and how it may have affected the outcome of WWII many dubious and disturbing posts were registered which were barely disguised anti-semetic and racist in content. The posters of these obnoxious statements were not censured or reprimanded in any way. Kuniworth was banned for being OT, these posters are still free to post. This is wrong. Surely the Forum Rules should cover potentially insulting/and or offensive posts.

On a final note I would like to say that this Forum and this community is indebted to Jersey John. He carries the spirit of the SC community.

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CC Baxter

Thank you, and you're making my head swell! ;)

Reading that last part of your post I picture about thirty people rolling their eyes and muttering a collective "P-uh-LEASE !!!" :D

I've tried to give back some of what this Forum has given me during the past year.

Ups and downs but along the way a lot of positives. It's been my good fortune to work through my computer all this time, which has enabled me to drop in at will and post almost anytime there was something I wished to comment upon.

Agreed that those who are lurking ought to add at least some posts once in a while so their opinions can be reflected and their input considered by others. Same as yourself I didn't mind having Comrade voice an opinion on my behalf; he's a very sensible person whose views I invariably respect.

Regarding that Thread on Hitler's ill health and the anti-Semitic statements that sprang up like weeds in a flower bed, I've got to agree. I'm not convinced that the people who made them ought to be banned, especially as it would do nothing to change their attitude, and might even make them more hardcore. Also, in several cases I think part of the problem was in having to express a sensitive thought in a second-third or fourth language. My father used to make a lot of prejudiced remarks, yet I knew very well that their wasn't an ounce of racism in his body, he just said things he'd heard so many times that to him the words came out automatically. Perhaps this was the case with the people who made those remarks in that thread.

To anyone who doubts the value of this Forum's Community tendancies, I'd have to say read this Thread from start to finish (whenever that will be) and perhaps that view will change dramatically.

Esquire

Yes, it would be filled, it's only a matter of by whom and by what the new voices choose to say. Yours is obviously a good voice and the place would be a better one if it were heard more often.

[ October 02, 2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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JerseyJohn and CC Baxter

Same as yourself I didn't mind having Comrade voice an opinion on my behalf; he's a very sensible person whose views I invariably respect.
Sorry about that, regardless if you didn't mind, it was not my intention to speak on your behalf, even though it seems to have looked that way.

The reason I quoted you was because you guys explained perfectly what I was trying to say.

Comrade Trapp

[ October 02, 2003, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Comrade Trapp ]

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The reason I quoted you was because you guys explained perfectly what I was trying to say.

Kuniworth's banning gave me the opportunity to get those feelings of my chest.I've felt that way for several weeks now and Jersey's thread was the right moment to divulge them. It was your posts Comrade about the admins and the bannings/forum rules which prompted me to speak up. For that I thank you.
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Same here.

Regarding the quote, it's the best kind of misunderstanding as all involved are in full agreement.

In the Kuniworth banning -- which will probably get a lock on this Thread -- I have to admit it's better in the forum when nobody is deliberately pushing the limits. That's something that was never called for and I think Kuni trapped himself into doing those things.

It makes it harder when more legitimate situations come up that push the limits. Problems always arise, why look for them?

Despite which, I liked his good points a lot, consider him a friend and already miss his off-the-wall humor. I'm hoping he gets reinstated and if so, that he forgets that Locked Thread nonsense. It gets taken the wrong way.

[ October 02, 2003, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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