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Please Respond! Do you support this proposal for new Scenario Depot?


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Hi All,

The current proposal for replacing "The Scenario Depot" is to have GJK extend The Proving Grounds to become a new Scenario Depot.

Gary needs to know whether this will be used if he does it, and whether the community supports him just getting on and building it (without a lot of "fuss" about how it will be run ... IE do we trust him to just build something good?)

Please post here to indicate whether you would be happy to use something, and whether you would actually use, something Gary builds.

Thanks,

GaJ

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My response is that I'm up for doing it, and can do it. I have the domain www.the-scenario-depot.com already registered and will have that set up once I have a site built.

We might as well start hashing out what it is we'd want for the site. It's easier for me to do it all now instead of tearing into the code piecemeal adding/changing stuff.

My thoughts:

Use TPG as the template. It's got a 3+ year track record and has been functional and stable all this time (save the 2 days we were down the other weekend, 1st time ever).

Changes from TPG would be:

Remove the "recently uploaded" list. I'm thinking of having a scenario from each game randomly picked once a day and displayed partially on the homepage as a "pick of the day" feature. This would circulate the older scenarios that are posted and hopefully spotlight them.

The discussions area would become an AAR section for each scenario. People can link to screenshots (offsite hosting) if they want. The AAR "end game" feature would be there for posting final outcomes if players wanted.

The various tips/tricks sections we wouldn't need, keep them at TPG.

What would need to be added:

Scenario reviews/ratings. I want to KISS this as much as possible. smile.gif

The "hot-linking" of scenarios from TPG to TSD - the "scenario card" idea that I posted about.

Other features, ideas, requests? Please discuss!

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Originally posted by GJK:

Other features, ideas, requests? Please discuss!

Upon d/l a scenario, be it a beta from TGP or a finished product from the new depot, an ice cold Beer is automatically poured into a frosty mug and placed on the desk next to the player.

Think outside the box, man!

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Yes please! Build it, what can I do to help?

Ooh, maybe an Icy Brew for ever scenario you review ;)

I quite liked the recent additions on the front page. It enabled someone downloading a scenario instant access to all the designers other work. It also gave a good indication of who was active and what they were working on. I guess this last point would be covered at TPG though. It also enables people to keep 'up to date'.

One other suggestion might be to enable a designer to 'pull' or delete an uploaded scenario if there was a problem or a mistake.

Richie

[ August 05, 2005, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Richie ]

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Originally posted by Richie:

Yes please! Build it, what can I do to help?

Ooh, maybe an Icy Brew for ever scenario you review ;)

I quite liked the recent additions on the front page. It enabled someone downloading a scenario instant access to all the designers other work. It also gave a good indication of who was active and what they were working on. I guess this last point would be covered at TPG though. It also enables people to keep 'up to date'.

One other suggestion might be to enable a designer to 'pull' or delete an uploaded scenario if there was a problem or a mistake.

Richie

I can leave the "recent posts" sidebar. I want a way to highlight older posts as well though, so I think I'll add to it the "scenario of the day" feature for one cmbo, cmbb, cmak scenario randomly rotated each day.

Authors at TPG do have the capability to modify and/or delete their scenarios and so the same functionality will be available at the TSD redeux.

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Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

IE do we trust him to just build something good?)

Yes I trust Gary.

I worry about him burning out with so many projects though.

I did like TSD's side bar with other scenarios by the designer.

I tend to like the "style" of certain designers and like to try their other works.

The Admiral has a full plate right now and I don't expect him to have a quick solution.

OTOH I don't think Gary wants to work on a temporary site.

Tis a quandry.

[ August 05, 2005, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: junk2drive ]

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Thanks guys, I will.

Here's what I'm working up for calculating the scoring average now:

Scores are a simple 1-10 as an overall score of the scenario. Or, we could break it down into categories and summed, totaling a score between 1-10, doesn't matter.

If a scenario has under 30 reviews (arbitrary number), then a bayesian average is added: num reviews - 30 = num bayesian averages to add. The bayesian average value would be 5.5. That total is averaged - if there's over 30 reviews, then there is no bayesian averages thrown in.

This average is added to the average of the range (highest and lowest rating) and then that number is averaged.

So the forumla is:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Mean = sum of given ratings + {5.5 * (30 - total number of ratings)) / by number of ratings + number of bayesian ratings

Range = highest rating + lowest rating / 2

Score = mean + range / 2</pre>

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I think this idea of marrying TPG with a TSD is the best proposal out there. The rating algorithm is just fine as well. Just a few things to add, if I may:

1. Allow sorting the scenarios by "best played as"

2. Provide funtional direction for the user as to where to find scenarios that are "final product" and where to find "works in progress (playtesting needed)"

3. Continue to allow the designer to remove/update his scenarios whenever he wants, like TPG is doing now. And if it's an update, allow the download count to continue and not restart at 0.

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While I agree that it is useful to have a blended numerical rating for scenarios, the problem is that not all scenario ratings should be taken seriously.

I won't argue the merits of using one system of calculation as opposed to another. Personally I would be inclined to simply throw out the top two or three scores along with the bottom two or three: that would eliminate fanboys and irrational haters. The problem is that by trashing four to six scores most scenarios wouldn't be left with many evaluations.

What I've found myself doing with the Scenario Depot in the past is to scan down the list of reviews, and factor in the number or reject it depending on whether the review was coming from someone who knows what they're talking about, or whether the written review sounds thoughtful enough for the ratings to be taken seriously.

The fact is that most ratings, mine included, aren't worth much. Not a problem if you have twenty reviews, but the reality is that you'll only get this in a few very popular scenarios that don't really need large number of reviews anyway.

The bottom line is that any mathematical formula for constructing a mean or a bowdlerized mean is fine by me, as long as I can get a sense of where the raw numbers are coming from by inspection. There are few really good players, and even fewer good reviewers. And they often aren't the same people. But if I see a scenario designer whose work I like giving something a 9, I know I should take a look.

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I would strongly support Gary's creation of a new Scenario Depot. My one request would be that, in anticipation of CMX2, it be compatible with the Safari browser for Mac OS X users. The TPG is not, which means I have to switch browsers to use it.

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Originally posted by Dook:

I would strongly support Gary's creation of a new Scenario Depot. My one request would be that, in anticipation of CMX2, it be compatible with the Safari browser for Mac OS X users. The TPG is not, which means I have to switch browsers to use it.

Frankly I don't know why anyone uses Safari... next issue.

Anyway my vote is yes for GJK! :D

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I think it would be great to have a one stop shop for scenarios and Gary does a great job with the site he has now. smile.gif

I do have one question though. Are we planning to start this site with just current author sent submissions or are you planning to throw all of the old scenarios back up that were saved from the depot? I for one would rather just see a fresh start with just the best battles and ops being submitted.

There was a lot of early effort scenarios at the depot for all 3 games(including some from me) that were not so great and I hate to have to wade through all of them to find the gems (and I am sure as an author that I am not alone in not wanting some of my older stuff posted).

Best of luck with the new site and I would support a paypal tab as well (doing the work for the Cm community is enough, you should not have to foot the whole bill for us as well) smile.gif

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Originally posted by Emar:

I think it would be great to have a one stop shop for scenarios and Gary does a great job with the site he has now. smile.gif

I do have one question though. Are we planning to start this site with just current author sent submissions or are you planning to throw all of the old scenarios back up that were saved from the depot? I for one would rather just see a fresh start with just the best battles and ops being submitted.

There was a lot of early effort scenaios at the depot for all 3 games(including some from me) that were not so great and I hate to have to wade through all of them to find the gems (and I am sure as an author that I am not alone in not wanting some of my older stuff posted).

Best of luck with the new site and I would support a paypal tab as well (doing the work for the Cm community is enough, you should not have to foot the whole bill for us as well) smile.gif

Good or bad, it will have to be a fresh start. We have CMMOD's for a "scenario dump" if someone just wants a bunch of scenarios, but for TSD, each scenario will have the parameters entered and saved into a database. That is going to take a community effort to either upload the old scenarios or just new ones (or most likely, a combo of both). I have no way of "importing" all that old info - Keith never sent any files to me and with a new ratings system, I don't think it would work anyways (well, I could make it work - but he'd have to send me what he has, if he has anything in the way of his database(s)).
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To me if GJK will do the work I will accept whatever he offers. If it would be less work I would like both sites to be combined.

Although I did not contribute, I liked the Prooving Grounds better, it sort of seemed more community based. Not knocking the Depot here at all as it was very good. Just my vote for the model if that is the word for it.

If it could be moddled a bit more like CMMODS that would be even better.

Cheers MarkL

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Originally posted by simovitch:

I think this idea of marrying TPG with a TSD is the best proposal out there. The rating algorithm is just fine as well. Just a few things to add, if I may:

1. Allow sorting the scenarios by "best played as"

2. Provide funtional direction for the user as to where to find scenarios that are "final product" and where to find "works in progress (playtesting needed)"

3. Continue to allow the designer to remove/update his scenarios whenever he wants, like TPG is doing now. And if it's an update, allow the download count to continue and not restart at 0.

I agree 100%. Suggestion #1 is very important.

I'd like to add:

4. Also in the review area put in a block to enter the score (example:37-Allies, 63-Axis). Then display some stats something like the Band of Brothers Scenario Balance Table. These stats should not be in a table but right next to th scenario reviews description. Stats should include Best Allied score, Best Axxis score, and Average. This would allow players to select balanced scenarios. This scoring should be seperated by AI and 2 player.

Gary can rebuilt it, he can make it better. He has the technology: The Bionic Scenario Depot :D

[ August 07, 2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: General Colt ]

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