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Good Question, the general feeling is that we're helping them to create something new. That is what our Goverment wants us to believe. The rest of us feel, can these people take the reigns of Goverment, that is a big question. In that division we're stuck. Stay and attempt to clean up what is partly our mess, or pull out and let the Baby Goverment fend for itself. War is definitely a short term Answer to anything longterm question.

Ultimately we can only stay in my opinion and help them Govern themselves until one day a Great Man and a strong will arises to do it for themselves, will it ever happen? I hope so...

The Axis of Evil and George Bush's statements are sort of queer and lacking in true SuperPower Fashion. You don't alienate your enemies, you attempt to politically force them to your will if that fails then you try other means. Some things are unacceptable. In my opinion there are many nations that need to be put in Line. Indonesia, Sudan, North Korea, etc... All have committed unforgivable acts of cruelty recently, it's just World Opinion that drives what we do. World Opinion is flakey though, as it was in the Yugoslavian Wars. Immediate Action like that which took place in Cyprus would've worked but that required a WorldWide Effort. We all need to make sacrifices, all the Euros not just France, Belgium and Germany..

"I like this man's little paper project on war, though it's from a wargame. War is the extension of Politics by Brute Force essentially he is saying by famous Authors. To get one side to bend to your will."

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161807

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i understand these things. But you have to balance the pros and contra of that war. Iraq will be the last one possible. The public opinion in the us will likely vote for a change, europe will stay out of it, russia will get mad, china also , the whole islamic world...that will be a nice intro for a long war. But answer me pple, do you want your army to stay there now, and occupy the rest of the mideast, what do you want for future for that region?

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i think the future of that part of the world should have been taken into account a while ago, before the invasion. I understand the muslim view, they are being attacked since a while by wester powers now. Should i have been a muslim, i should have fought i think, for what they think is wrong, cant blame those pple. Blame their leaders. But now they are suffering.

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Pussyfooting around and trying to "reason" with these terrorist criminals, and the nation states that support and harbor them, is what brought on 9-11. Had we heeded the warnings provided by numerous attacks over the last 20 years, and taken action, then 9-11 might have been avoided.

These folks have (repeatedly) declared "holy" (sic) war on the USA, and we can either fight for our freedom and way of life or ultimately give in and wait for the world to become one big Islamic State with a nice return to the supposed halcyon days of the 12th century. Of course the so called "Islamic" terrorists seem believe in a seriously twisted version of one of the world's great religions.

The fact is that giving in to terrorist demands is viewed, by them, as a sign of weakness to be ruthlessly exploited as Spain and other nations that try to reason with the unreasonable will find out sooner or later.

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What "lie"?. The best intel information available at the time, indicated the presence of WMD, and we and our Allies believed that to be the case. This "lie" routine is a politically motivated construct of the liberal press both within and outside the USA. Although not widely reported, radioactive traces of possible nuclear weapons, aand chemical/biological WMD gave been found, and more may yet be discovered. Iraq is pretty good sized and full of natural and man made hiding places. Remember it took several months to dig Saddam out of his rat hole.

If Saddam had nothing to hide all he had to do was allow full inspection in accord with UN resolutions. He chose instead to stonewall against the requirements layed down after the 1st Gulf war for over 10 years. Saddam paid the price for his misjudgement, and hopefully will pay the price also for his perpetration of countless atrocities.

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@Qyusson --- Facts, the majority of the U.S.A. wants to whip some Middle East ass, starting with Iraq, first.

1) Payback for 911. Remember, no matter who was proved to be involved, somebody is getting a butt kicking. Iraq & Afganistan work nicely. We don't have the time or money to analyze every little detail. You bomb the USA, we bomb back. Simple logic.

2) Saddam Insane is a piece of crap. He wouldn't listen to the U.N. Legal Sanctions from years ago. No point playing around with him anymore. He tortured, raped, killed, launched missles at Israel (see Desert Storm #1), starved people, etc. The world is a better place without him in charge.

3) His Sons were nuts & next inline for control. It would be an injustice if we allowed that.

4) Iraq has WMD, ask all the Kurds who were gassed, shot & beaten. A baseball bat is too much for those nutcracks.

5) The USA supports Israel, we are the Big Brother to the Jew. Why? Because of religion. The USA is dominated by the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, we have alot of sin, but once you turn of the T.V. & talk to people, that's what we believe in the majority. The Bible is crystal clear about salvation...It's also clear about being a friend to the Jew. The Euros hate Jews, and are only a generation away from their murderous behavior. My Uncle at age 3 was thrown in a camp by those Goose Stepping Killers along with several other of my relatives. They were working between Romanian & SouthEast Germany. You really think things have changed far as Europe's opinion about Israel? France & Germany could careless about Israel, save Shindler's List guy.

6) We're not going to sit around anymore waiting for some pyscho to bomb us. It's called proactive. We're not waiting for the next Hitler.

Bottom line: The USA doesn't back down to terrorism like Spain, France, & Germany. We're going to kick some butt. The UN is worthless bill we pay, it's a joke. The USA could careless about UN, it's just a tool when convenient. Far as the all the hippies wearing the "no blood for oil".....Well, oil is something to fight for, without it, we're done.

Turn off the T.V. & don't believe it. When push comes to shove (and it does eventually, read Revelations), we're going to rock. This world is about survival, not laying down to terror.

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About the WMD's, there was evidence to suggest that Saddam had them, or was constructing them. However, this was not the sole reason for invading. In my belief, it was because Saddam would in the long-term create an unstable world oil supply. Many countries (actually, most) have quite a few human rights problems, and Saddam isn't the worst. However, he was a dictator in the wrong part of the world. Oil is a necessity, not a luxury anymore. The U.S. hopes to creat a long lasting stability in the region, through both the removal of Saddam, and the demonstration of its military might. This demonstration is often necessary, as other countries who wish to conquer their neighbor are often reminded of the worlds' police nation.

Is the US bad for doing this? Hard to say. We tend to force Western ideals on people who don't really want it. Who says these people want democracy? Democracy (apart from Greece) is a recent invention even for us, and it's usually only applicable in sufficiently developed countries. I can't see 20 or 50 years in the future, but it'll either go one of two ways, armageddon or world peace.

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What's funny about the Euros...they don't support our actions in the Middle East. The Euros say it won't work. What do you think we did for Germany & Japan? We came over, kicked some butt, rebuilt the country, & showed you guys how to live. Germans had WMD, it's called dropping bombs on sleeping farmers. Germans were into this "Ruins Religion", bowing down to idols, symbols, swastikas, calling Hitler their Savior & stuff. It's just a small version of the Anti-Christ.

Same story in the Middle East. These clowns are living in the Stone Ages, we need a little time for the plan to work. At least we're trying to change things.

Far as World War 3, well it's going to happen eventually, just read Revelations. Salvation is just a prayer away. This world is lacking & is mankind. Straight is the gate, narrow is the way, to the Truth, the Life, & the Word.

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Although I am a practicing Catholic, bringing the Bible into other cultures is, well, un-practical. We need more tact. The peoples of the middle-east want and need to develope their own ideas. We can't and should not enforce upon them our version of enlightenment. They must find it themselves. I do believe, however, that an example is necessary for them. Iraq, if it becomes a stable, successfully functioning democracy, can provide this example.

The technological gaps between 'us' and 'them' are getting larger every year, not smaller. Germany was born out of western ideology, not islamic. Their resurgence out of the ashes of WW2 is a combination of many factors, but the most major of them, is that they are similiar to us in very many senses, racially, religiously and industriouly. Moslems are by and large, not.

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Well, Rambo is a hardliner for the American side and we need that, many Americans would rather not get involved, typical old fashioned isolationism. I can't say my foreign policy is soft either. Someone has to do the world's dirty work, and sadly that's the United States. There is no other Nation willing to do what we will do and that will make us look like apes to some, yes, but that's just life. Someone has to keep the well oiled Machine of World Power Flowing in Balance, if not all hell will break loose and some Biblical Armageddon may be upon us. I'm neither Christian nor Muslim, I'm Personal Spiritual and my God/Goddess/Higher Power says that Evil must be purged. That's why I feel so strongly about finishing the job over there, about getting rid of terrorism. Terrorism is a form of warefare is what some people don't seem to get through their thick skulls. So far in the past 4 years it's caused tens of thousands of deaths, collasped Goverments, Destroyed Sky Scrapers, cost Billions<soon to be Trillions>. This is not child's play, if Osama Bin Laden could've my Euro and only foreign friends he planned to poison our water supply, set off our Nuclear Power Plants, cause forest fires to ablaze the entire Nation, etc...

That means that if you live in Canada, some of that leakage could fall over, or Mexico and directly effect you. Don't think that after the USA is hit, the next on the agenda won't be Italy-UK-Japan and anyone else who doesn't act like a whiny little girl in the face of terrorism. Check out the Isrealis, they have an awesome system, if you hit us, we hit you. Hamas<sp> is afraid to announce their leaders these days.

I live on a Military Base, the 82nd Airborne. The boys off this base are paying their lives, for better or worse for your tomorrow. Be the wise souls that guide them instead of the troubled ones that misguide them into harms way!

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@Jon_j_rambo: 1)payback for 9-11: i think this has been done, afghanistan has been attacked and the supporters of Bin Laden, the Taliban, have been thrown out. But Bin Laden himself? Never found, so the real bad guy is still free. A beautiful image of how good the US method is working. 2)Saddam is a piece of crap, so are many others...To be honest i do not value president Bush much higher. How can such a stupid person become leader of the greatest country of the world, i do not get that. Ok,hes no genocider. 3)His sons too, but it does not give you the reason for going into war, there are many other dictators, which the usa work with, like uzbekistan. Pure Hypocrisy. 4)Iraq had WMD, after first gulf war their only weapons left were old scuds, that they dismantled or tried to shoot at Israel. 5)Europeans do not hate Jews, but European politics do not agree with Israels way of dealing with things. Israel is a dangerous country that had to be stopped. Jews in Europe can live freely, antisemite acts must be punished.6)Acting like US act now will only improve the chance of getting such a Hitler soon, US behaviour is pissing the rest of the world off, what will lead to more radicalisation.

Like Avatar says, we need to let pple develop their own ideas, thats the way it works, not a behaviour of 'lets go there and tell them how to live'. Do you think they will like you more after that? Be realistic, they will hate you for that, you see it now, the whole muslim world hates the States. Rambo, what did work for Germany will not work for the Mid-east. Germans are europeans, christians. They just had agreed in a wrong ideology. '& showed you guys how to live' mmmmm you think i like your way of living? u think i like MC DOnalds or all that crap. But i will not forget the US have helped us twice (France helped you also in the time, you would never have been independant from GB), when the USA will be in REAL danger, Europe will help with all its got. For now the US are looking for troubles. You are the sole superpower, but no nation can control the entire world, too many different religions, different cultures, it won't work. We tried it we failed, you ll try it you will fail.

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My view of what the West has to undertake to erase terrorism: we have to align our intelligence agencies, so that US and Europe can possibly react alltogether and simultanously to terrorist threats. We have to pull out from Iraq and other muslim countries to calm down the hatred muslims have against us. We have to punish Israel for their crimes against the Palestines, and punish the palestines for their crimes against the Jews. Give Palestinians a state and one of the most important problems of the region will be solved. We have to actively help the local governments with funds and techs so that they can wage their wars alone, terrorism is for the governments there the greatest threat. Now we have involved ourselves with this crap and we must get rid of it. Why does my country, Belgium, have less risks from terrorism than Italy or GB? coz we have stayed out.

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A few facts:

Was France who give Israel the tech to get A-bombs.

The party that win the elections in Spain after the 3-11 ,had in their political program the withdraw of Iraq before the 3-11 ,cause most of the people in Spain (read that as 80-90%) was agaist our intervention in that war.

I still don´t know why our former president(i´m spanish) sent us there, I mean the real reasons not the "fight agiast evil" and all that rubish.

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Nagmouth --- Fight against Evil, it's rubish? I saw perfectly good planes fly into perfectly good buildings. That's another Euro attitude...long as it isn't your head getting headcracked, everything is just peachy.

"You got fight, for your right, to party" --- Beastie Boys.

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Originally posted by Yaggmoth:

The party that win the elections in Spain after the 3-11 ,had in their political program the withdraw of Iraq before the 3-11 ,cause most of the people in Spain (read that as 80-90%) was agaist our intervention in that war.

A few facts:

You and me know how that party won the elections, by the utterly, outrageous and most flagrant media manipulation ive seen since Goebbels, helped by the shock of the people. Prisa Group knows, just as Goebbles, to manipulate the minds of the "deep spain people", comunists, anarquists, subsidize actors and people that feels alone and instead of buying a dog attends demostrations.

Actual spanish president chair rests upon 200 tombs.

Actual president decisions are based upon the bunch of votes they can provide in the short run, and not as a president of a nation. His decisions as whether to remove the troops or not are dictated by his pillowcase.

We have this crappy president cos a bunch of bums decided to bomb spain... 2 years ago.

Im totally ashamed of our withdrawal of Iraq, even tho the US are not tackling well the post-war we cant leave em like that.

Aznar is the Winston Churchill of the politics, Zapatero is the Benny HIll.

WAR ON TERROR.

No pain no gain.

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Clinton came so close to giving Palestinians a state, it's too bad that they didn't cooperate with the Isrealis. They could've fought for more land later IMO.

I'm shocked that Bin Laden slipped through our intel so long, I think that since the Cold War Americans haven't expected any real threats, I guess all those old MiddleEastern Terrorist Movies now make since ;) They are fighting a war for Radical Muslim Beliefs. In these belief women have to wear Sheets to cover their heads, some as far as every strand of hair. Taking it further, Females may not goto school. Men may not partake in alcohol<but most of the average men have a liquor cabinet at home> It is okay, to cut off hands for thievery and to stone women for infidelity. It also okay to circumsize woman and sew them up for marriage<talk about extreme> Remeber this is a different culture, sounds a bit like the Euros walked in after the Ottomans were defeated made them Colonies but never really effected or changed the culture dramatically. They were all still very much living in the 1500s or earlier and Black Gold forced introducing them into Modern times. Now keep in mind not every muslim is a radical but the above is true in a large percentage of their World. Christians and Muslims have been fighting for over a Millenia for control of the World. Remeber the Old Kaliphates invading Spain Charlemange saving the day for the Franks? There is some old World Hatred there goes deeper and further back then us. You can't under or comprehend the many facets of politics, religion and culture and then Warfare without being 40 Xs more educated then we are IMO but I do know one thing, the Iraqis are better off for now. So are the Afgans... So despite all the bad, some are reaping much good. Since we neglected Afganistan after it defeated Russia this is our payback for helping to defeat Communism, protecting the little Nowhere Nation. Plus Iraq, for not cleaning it up in the First Gulf War and selling Sodumb a Arsenal fit for a World Mastermind Doctor Evil. Remeber most of his equipment is Chinese, American, French, Brazilian Russian.. Who made these Evil Men Powerful? Every time we need to own 2 cars for 1 Family. Every time someone runs a Shower for 45 minutes instead of 5. The fact we will turn to anyone in the past to fight our enemies instead of noble Men and Nations.. Perhaps there is a lesson in this middleastern thing. I try not to be a hypocrit, but it's hard not to be. Purge This problem now, it's only an ingrown toenail, what the foreigners dont' realize is we're festering Gangreen

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I'd just like to say that Afghanistan never 'defeated' the Soviet Union per se. Actually, if you read more about the 79-88 invasion, you'll see that the Afghan government actually requested that the Soviets come in. It was quite a complicated situation. However, the Pentagon saw this 'aggression' as a possible swing towards the Middle East. It was possible, but indications from Gorbachev later on indicated that that fear was unfounded.

Most of the Moslem world is backwards. The poor in the western world arguably still have it better than most of them. The question is, is it our 'duty' to bring them our technology, our standard of living. Western Ideology says that all people 'deserve' freedom, freedom from sexism, freedom of speech, freedom to vote.. etc. I personally think our philosophy on life is the 'right' one. It makes senses, it's logical. Moslems are by and large trapped in a religion that is restrictive in many ways. I'm not saying it's a wrong religion, but it is somewhat incompatible with the modern world. Any moslems on this board by chance? I'd like to hear them speak up.

AND, how the hell did this topic get to this thread! Who the hell hijacked it?!?

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LOL Liam wrote sth and i couldnt let that be without answering, should have started a new thread sry. @Condor: Spain has no president, they have a prime minister, Zapatero, the man just listens to his people, as 70-80% of spain was against the war. Aznar and his government have tried to mislead their people, by telling that 11-03 attacks were fom the E.T.A, even if they knew they couldnt know yet. The Partido Popular tried to manipulate its pple,hoping to reverse the process and win the elections, not the socialists. @Rambo: its not true, we have felt the same pain and anger when 09-11 occured, but maybe in Europe we still see things from a distance, that makes us more able to see through things i think, If you believe marching into iraq was part of the war against terror then you are misleaded. Iraq is another subject, but now of course it has become the fighting ground for terrorists; for their jihad, since arabic muslim land is 'soiled'. So indeed the war in iraq had its good sides: 1)eliminating saddam hussein, 2)securing the oil sources, 3)installing democracy (we will see if that will work) and 4) making a lot of terrorists come over there, its easier to battle them at one place than everywhere in the world... BUT i hope the actions against the muslim world will not lead to total radicalisation of alrdy seriously radicalized religions.

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First of all, Qyusson, get informed yerself before speaking about what u obviously have no idea. Spain doesnt have a premier league neither we have a prime minister, and yes, we do have a president. Facts: teh 3/11 comission has clearly determined that the former goverment didnt lie. they just told in real time what they thought it was happening.

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sorry condor, zapatero is president indeed. I was misleaded by the fact that spain has a king, monarchies do not have presidents, they have kings or queens. But the term is 'president of the government', thats about the same as a prime minister... Fact is Aznar has been in charge for 8 years and at the end spain began to look like the old franco period... He surely didnt understand 'freedom of speech'.

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