Questions for Hubert.

[SuperTed]

Guys,

Having played Third Reich 100 years ago, I appreciate the value and effect of the airborne units in that game. Although similar to 3R, please remember this game is a different monster. Also, the focus of SC is on three primary areas:

1) fun

2) simple

3) replayable

Guess what? It excels in all three categories like no other game! Once you have the demo, you'll get a glimpse of what I mean.

[ April 25, 2002, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: SuperTed ]

[von Murrin]

*shouts above the airborne lobbyists*

A-HEM!

Originally posted by ME:

Hubert,

I did a quick check of the forum, and I didn't see anything on sub combat. The FAQ states that they have the ability to avoid attacks, but it doesn't say if they're unique in any other way.

To be precise, are they hard to spot? Do they do anything special, say, for instance, affect production or supply? Are they handled just like any other naval unit?

Also, will there be provisions for things like Lend/Lease? Say maybe I want to build more tanks in Russia, but I'm out of MPP's. Can I take some from the US?

Still curious.

[Hubert Cater]

- In FoW mode subs will be much more difficult to spot, it will be normal spotting range - 1. So since most naval units have a spotting range of 2 this gives you the opportunity to see them before they see you. By the same reasoning, the spotting of air units will also be decreased.

- Other than the ability to dive from attack, they are treated just as any other naval unit.

- Lend lease is not modeled in this game.

[BloodyBucket]

I'm starting to get the impression that this game might be more than the sum of the parts. If every detail that every grog wanted was in there, we might be able to have the airborne invasion of Malta, defended by lend-lease purchased armor captured by Axis minors and shipped via submarine in parts by a randomly rated naval leader and put back together by Japanese engineers, who are available because of events in the "other" theater, but would we have a playable, fun game?

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by BloodyBucket:

...but would we have a playable, fun game?

Give this man the prize!

[von Murrin]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

- In FoW mode subs will be much more difficult to spot, it will be normal spotting range - 1. So since most naval units have a spotting range of 2 this gives you the opportunity to see them before they see you. By the same reasoning, the spotting of air units will also be decreased.

- Other than the ability to dive from attack, they are treated just as any other naval unit.

- Lend lease is not modeled in this game.

Thank you. Much appreciated!

[Desert Dave]

Hilarious take by Bloody Bucket!

And, it's a good point about asking for too much detail... on the other hand, atmospherics make a historical re-creation that much more fun to play.

How many times has the wrong dice-# come up, or the AI has incinerated a favorite unit -- and we are genuinely pissed off?

Maybe... a middle ground, where you feel that you are actually in the middle of, and directly influencing -- a World-shaking :eek: event.

Some historical detail is needed. And the game designer (lucky guy :cool: ) gets to say what it is. He is the auteur. We are the players.

Although... I'd still ask for -- chasing the convoys in a realistic Battle of the North Atlantic -- remember that great movie, Das Boot?

[Mannheim Tanker]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

Hilarious take by Bloody Bucket!

And, it's a good point about asking for too much detail... on the other hand, atmospherics make a historical re-creation that much more fun to play.

How many times has the wrong dice-# come up, or the AI has incinerated a favorite unit -- and we are genuinely pissed off?

Maybe... a middle ground, where you feel that you are actually in the middle of, and directly influencing -- a World-shaking :eek: event.

Some historical detail is needed. And the game designer (lucky guy :cool: ) gets to say what it is. He is the auteur. We are the players.

Although... I'd still ask for -- chasing the convoys in a realistic Battle of the North Atlantic -- remember that great movie, Das Boot?

Agreed. Bloody Bucket makes a good point that the grogs will always ask for too many little details, but I don't think this is the case here. There comes a point where you can oversimplify the game to the point where you lose out on a lot of really good options. A lot of games are playable, but aren't very replayable because the oversimplification means your options for varying strategies are quite limited (Panzer General 3D anyone?).

[Mr. Clark]

I really like Straha's ideas for Airborne troops!

I'm beginning to agree a little bit about airbornes actual (lack of) effectiveness at this scale. What Straha mentions would allow us a few more tactical options, while not creating an unrealistically powerful unit that would simply be exploited in unrealistic ways.

At $25, I'm already sold on this game. As long as the DEMO runs on my PC, I'll be purchasing the full version.

I DO however hope that it will be supported for a while by any necessary patches, as CM was.

Can't wait for the DEMO!

[ April 26, 2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Clark ]

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker:

A lot of games are playable, but aren't

replayable because the

oversimplification means your options

for varying strategies are quite

limited (Panzer General 3D

anyone?).

I agree. So-o-o many games gathering dust on the shelf :mad: because -- once you figure out the limited AI, each game is very nearly the same.

This one, with the Scenario Editor, and PBEM, and a challenging AI, may very well be different, we'll soon see.

[Mannheim Tanker]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

This one, with the Scenario Editor, and PBEM, and a challenging AI, may very well be different, we'll soon see.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right there. A scenario editor makes a world of difference in any game.

[BloodyBucket]

Striking the balance between deadly dull detail work and bland oversimplification is certainly the trick. I think that a game designer will never satisfy all gamers with one title, but there are certainly things that a good game about WWII in Europe that should have.

One element is decision making, via production and employment of units that gives historically valid and interesting choices. Being able to buy airborne units MIGHT contribute to this.

Another element is flavor, or what the old board gaming community called "chrome". Having separate airborne units with nifty parachute icons is certainly "chrome", but if they do ahistorical, unrealistic things or unbalance a game, that is the kiss of death.

Some "chrome" is harmless (SS units are black instead of gray), but too much can be, well, too much, especially if it makes the player micromanage every aspect of the employment and production of forces. Who would want to have to manage production of winter clothing for the German army? I know, some gamers would love to, but for most of us, having a penalty for German units during the first Russian winter works quite well. Sure, the Germans might have spared some production points for more winter gear and training. Hindsight, of course, is perfect. The "first winter penalty" rule is a compromise giving historical flavor promotes historical results and has been used in a lot of games.

(Hey, how does SC handle that, by the way?)

If SC has interesting decision-making, enough flavor to give it a historical feel and an AI and scenario editor to keep it fresh, it will make a lot of gamers happy. I predict that the airborne will be to SC what the quad .50 is to CMBO, a detail that would have been nice to have, but not enough to keep me away from the game.

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by Bloody Bucket

Some "chrome" is harmless (SS units are black instead of gray), but too much can be, well, too much, especially if it makes the player micromanage every aspect of the employment and production of forces

Way back when, it was a shameless time :cool: , I had this '66 GTO convertible -- that sea-green & devil-blue shine! to it...

And I really took pride in all the wrenching I did on the 389 bully-block that had dual-quads sitting spitting on top, and how easy the Hurst synchro-shifter ran it through them yellow-lights like greased lightning.

However, the Foxes seemed to be charmed by the rally-mags and the wood-grained dash they used to like to caress it and go -- oh, oooh... well,

In a WWII GS game, you gotta have the basics, first and formeost -- and Hubert's gone and did it pretty good, it looks like.

The chrome? Like the history story above, it all depends on what action yer after. A little is good. Too much, and... hell, you know.