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Questions for Hubert.


von Murrin

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Okay, I'll stop whining about Airborne. It would still be damn nice shiny chrome if it could be added in a later patch!

I guess I'd rather have the game sooner, than wait for new stuff to be added.

I hope we can play the DEMO PBEM!!! Either way, I can't frigging wait!

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SS-Obergruppenfuhrer:

Historically, Hungary and Rumania joined the Axis in November 1940, and Yugoslavia joined in late March 1941. However, none of these nations ever declared war on Britain, although Britain severed diplomatic relations with them.

After the Yugoslav pro-Allied coup, Germany, Italy and Bulgaria declared war on her. Later, Bulgaria occupied Greek Thrace, but without declaring war on Greece, and after the Greek surrender to Germany and Italy.

In June 1941 Hungary and Rumania declared war on the USSR, but still did not declare war on Britain.

Britain did not declare war on Hungary, Rumania and Bulgaria (and Finland) until December 1941.

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Regarding airborne at this scale, it probably doesn't make a significant difference. However, the potential capability has a strategic effect of forcing the enemy to consider air drops and diverting resources to deal with them. Airborne can also support invasions and river crossings. Similarly, commando units with a capability to invade non-beach hexes can also create diversions and provide support. WWII saw the introduction of these special operations forces. Despite limited successes and several outright disasters in the actual war, they could be very effective in the game if properly used. I would still like to see airborne units included in SC, even in a later patch, rather than postponed to SC2.

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An airborne ability would be important for attacks on Malta, Gibralter, Crete, etc as a means of supporting the seaborne invasion. Is it possible an itegral airborne capability for air forces used to support sea invasions as a why to simulate paratroopers and help offset beach defending bonuses.

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I think one of the difficulties in incorporating airborne into this game has to do with the scale. Since the smallest unit is at the Corps level, it would be very difficult to justify an airborne unit unless we were dealing with at least the divisional level. Same would also go for other specialized troops like mountain divisions or combat engineers, both of which existed in higher numbers than airborne units during the war.

Probably the best way to consider the airborne is that they are implied as part of the existing Air arm in the game. This can be somewhat understood since the game deals with 'entrenchment' and 'readiness' that can both be affected from aerial attack and will give that disrupted sort of feel that both aerial bombardment and the dropping of airborne units would accomplish.

As another example the same can be said with 'Tank Groups' or 'Panzer Armies' in this game. Although they are represented by the 'Tank Icon' it is not to say that this entire unit is made up of tanks, but rather that it has a higher number of tanks and would be mostly mechanized with still a sizable compliments of infantry within the divisions.

Hope this helps,

Hubert

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Hubert,

I did a quick check of the forum, and I didn't see anything on sub combat. The FAQ states that they have the ability to avoid attacks, but it doesn't say if they're unique in any other way.

To be precise, are they hard to spot? Do they do anything special, say, for instance, affect production or supply? Are they handled just like any other naval unit?

Also, will there be provisions for things like Lend/Lease? Say maybe I want to build more tanks in Russia, but I'm out of MPP's. Can I take some from the US?

I'm really curious about these; any answer would be appreciated. smile.gif

Nathanael

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If you put airborne units in the game, you would have to worry about covering too many open spaces -- not enough small units to act as garrisons, unless you use large units that have been reduced -- though the expense would probably be too high to just purchase a lot of corps.

Speaking of Lend-Lease, can the Allies tap the USA's cash-register? Before, or after they have entered the war? Seems like this would be critical for Britain to survive.

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Originally posted by Rommel22:

I don't care about the airborne either, plus this is on a much bigger scale, so it's abstract by the armies and coprs units. This scale is way to big for airborne units.

:eek: I couldn't disagree more. As was mentioned above, the Airborne is important due to the increased strategic options that are opened up by being able to drop a corps in the enemy's rear. This scale is perfect for airborne.
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Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

If you put airborne units in the game, you would have to worry about covering too many open spaces

Exactly! This is the same dilemma faced by the leaders in WWII. Remember that an AB drop isn't practical just anywhere; there must still be an opportunity to quickly link up with the airborne to prevent it from being isolated and destroyed by mobile, armored forces. A relatively small mobile reserve would suffice.

This sounds like a cool game, but it looks like it's missing a few key components (AB and air units for example). Check out World at War, an online PBEM that features WWII-type strategic combat and you'll see what I mean. That game would be a bore if you took away the air units and airborne, as it would quickly turn into a grind fest. Adding strategic options for the player (especially ones that existed in WWI) will add dramatically to the playability of the game.

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Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

I think one of the difficulties in incorporating airborne into this game has to do with the scale. Since the smallest unit is at the Corps level, it would be very difficult to justify an airborne unit unless we were dealing with at least the divisional level. Same would also go for other specialized troops like mountain divisions or combat engineers, both of which existed in higher numbers than airborne units during the war.

I agree regarding teh specialized support units (e.g. engineers), but AB is not an extention of the air arm. It's a strategic element in its own right, just like having a navy means one can project power overseas. Check out the TOAW scenario, Europe Aflame, and you'll see what I mean. They implement airborne units there, and it blends well at that scale.
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I kinda agree the Tanker...

BUT, at the scale of the game, since you don't want to go dropping large Airborne units TOO deep into enemy territory, I think you will be able to simulate air drops simply by attacking with a combination of air power and infantry units. (Basically, Airborne units could be assumed to be a part of the battle.)

At least that should work until we get our Airborne patch! ;)

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Originally posted by Rommel22:

I don't care about the airborne either, plus this is on a much bigger scale, so it's abstract by the armies and coprs units. This scale is way to big for airborne units.

..snippage...

And if we did, they would have to have a strength of only 5 points imo. Because lifting up a whole coprs would not be so easy, so a 5 strength coprs could be as a airborn unit.

How do you figure? WIth 1 week turns during 'campaign season' there's more than ample time to drop a full airborne corps (ala Overlord, Market Garden & Varsity) as was done historically by armies with enough technology & resources. Airborne missions that happened at lower scale didn't have the strategic reach to make it into a game of this scale, but there certainly were Corps level airborne ops.

Airborne Smiley > parachute.gif

I can't wait for the demo.

On that we agree!

[ April 25, 2002, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]

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I'll chime in here once more, since no horse is too dead to beat. Hubert, a game scale of corps size can certainly handle special units of division(+) size, like the rocket detachments? The US 18 Abn Corps and British Abn Corps (1st Abn Div + Polish Abn Bde) were corps size, and you could argue that the German airborne capability was also corps size. Russian and Italian airborne was smaller, so just give them lower strength or something.

Are you suggesting US 18 Abn will be just a leg infantry unit in the game and there will still be some abstract "airborne" as part of air attacks? Airborne worked VERY well in Third Reich at this game scale (even with 3 month turns) and could work in SC. Since airborne units did not count against stacking limits in 3R, the corps size abstraction was irrelevant. It was the strategic effect that was key, and you can't recreate that through air units. Ditto for commando units if you decide to add them as well.

We're only talking about a handful of airborne units, not a major revision of the game code or OOB as playtested. I just can't understand how SC can have so many good features (and I praise you for them!) except this, nor why we need to argue to get it added before the game goes on sale or at least addressed as a near-term patch. Isn't this what the beta process is for? We haven't even seen the SC demo and we're already talking about SC2. OK, soapbox mode OFF. I'll grit my teeth and wait. :mad:

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Old Dobbs the oat-chomper is still breathing, so I will pitch in...

Have thought it over, and I remember a great game with A3R where I finally! managed to take Malta and it couldn't have been done with the AB.

I guess you could have some reduced corps to cover the main bases -- no more bothersome than having to watch out for the Partisans in Pripyit or mountains of Yugo.

From everything I have heard so far this is going to be a challenging and extremely re-playable game, might as well ask for the moon.

I vote for AB in SC2! :cool:

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I agree about the challenge and replayability of this game... not to mention the sheer fun of it.

I'd rather see Airborne included in a patch, though, than have to wait for an SC2. THEN, Airborne could be tweaked for the eventual SC2, along with whatever other features were added.

EDIT: I just noticed that this game is only gonna cost $25!!! Damn, what a bonus! That's a lot of play for $25!

[ April 25, 2002, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Clark ]

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Regarding airborne: I'll play the demo and give it an honest try. I'm willing to wait and see if there is a work around in the game system, but I have to express my skepticism about that. If I feel like there is a void there, it's a no-buy situation for me. I thought it best to be forthright about the matter.

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I guess you are right, Airborne might work in this game. But again, the scale as far as distance is to big. I mean 50km per hex, that means that that Airborn Corps will only affect that one hex. You'll only be able to drop it behind one other unit and thats it. It will be stuck behind enemy lines out of supply, easier for the enemy to kill it. But yea, thats what did happen to the Airborn, I know. I just dont think a Airborne corps in this game will have any value. There are no roads to seize, no airfields to capture, no bridges to secure.

So what would the airborn do in this scale? They would drop a hex behind an enemy unit and maybe reduce it's supply by 2 points, while itself has no supply. A turn later it is destroyed by other units behind the lines. To me they would so pointless, having no value at all.

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Plus, you would have to garrison every port (displaced, but not damaged?).

And, what about those air fleets? I am understanding that there is only one unit per hex, so if you cannot protect them directly, they would be at extreme risk as well, no?

This all depends on whether it is economical to have a LOT of corps-sized units (reduced) on the board -- maybe it just costs too much to establish a new corp?

And, you'd have to watch out for the Suez Canal (presumably can be damaged and put out of operation -- is there op-movement around The Horn?) and valuable places like rocket sites, etc.

I guess this means -- we will have to ask Hubert for an inexpensive Garrison Unit?

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There are some very basic ways of implementing the airborne where you don't have to guard everything.

In COS, the airborne unit basically stays where it is, but (after a turn of preparation) can *participate* in an attack up to 4 hexes away. When doing so it disrupts the defender and negates certain defense bonuses due to terrain etc.

Furthermore, you could only buy one such unit.

This would be enough for me to be happy.

Straha

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Originally posted by Straha:

There are some very basic ways of implementing the airborne where you don't have to guard everything.

In COS, the airborne unit basically stays where it is, but (after a turn of preparation) can *participate* in an attack up to 4 hexes away. When doing so it disrupts the defender and negates certain defense bonuses due to terrain etc.

Furthermore, you could only buy one such unit.

This would be enough for me to be happy.

Straha

Good ideas. You certainly can't completely dismiss the idea of effectively using AB like Rommel appears to be doing (I think you're oversimplifying the example - it's not a binary choice of drop and die...think of it in TOAW terms perhaps). There's a historical precedent for using AB units at this scale, as well has precedents in other games of this scale where the inclusion of AB units added a lot to the game.

As stated above, I'll certainly try the demo out and make my decision based upon that. When buying a game, I look at the replay factor as much as anything, and that will likely make my decision. Sounds pretty good so far, Hubert! (nothing is perfect, especially in v1.0).

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Originally posted by Rommel22:

I just dont think a Airborne corps in this game will have any value. There are no roads to seize, no airfields to capture, no bridges to secure.

Three words: Zone Of Control.

So what would the airborn do in this scale? They would drop a hex behind an enemy unit and maybe reduce it's supply by 2 points, while itself has no supply. A turn later it is destroyed by other units behind the lines. To me they would so pointless, having no value at all.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what kind of special case rules are written for this kind of unit. Allowing a friendly overstack to increase combat power in a stack is one option as is allowing the AB unit to temporarily occupy the same hex as the target.
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