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Comrade

Understood, I know how you meant it. smile.gif

The mid-sixties through the late seventies.

People tend to remember the bad things about that era, but there were numerous government safeguards in place protecting workers and the truth is industry was booming throughout the nation for much of that time so the employers themselves protected their workers and gave them incentives to have loyalty to the company and to do more productive work. At job interviews the personnel manager -- there was none of this phony and scary sounding human resource garbage -- would start off telling you about the company's medical coverage and retirement plan.

The past twenty or so years I've seen things like employers who kept their workers at 34 hours a week maximum so they wouldn't be considered full time. This wouldn't have worked in the period I described; workers would have found a real employer down the street offering a forty hour week and real benefits.

Around 1980 things began changing for the American blue collar workers and the 1981 Air Traffic Controler crush was the death knell. I've heard a lot of people talk about how the American worker became too greedy and all that; my brother is tops on that list. He's a retired Wall Street exec spending his time on world tours, he and his wife go on ten trips a year to places outside the United States. He's full of crap just like like the rest of them. The people at the top are the greedy ones, not the stiffs who dare to ask for a decent wage and medical / retirement benefits.

No doubt there'll be some ultra right wing response to this. That's fine, whatever ... :rolleyes:

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Jersey,

I feel your pain man. A working stiff myself, and it so funny how how Ron is being deitified by republicans. Echoing earlier sentiments: Running the country into massive deficits, no problem! Mortgaging the future of your children, no problem! My anti-commie friends have death squads, no problem! I gut services for the poor, mentally ill, no problem! I trade missiles for hostages, no problem!

Yep, you can sum it all up if you ask Ron, no problem! May God have mercy on his soul.

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aesopo123

Thanks, I was beginning to think I was going nuts on all of this. To me it's as though the people in power have been stealing this country a little piece at a time for the past twenty-five years or so. And the very people who are being robbed are the ones screaming the loudest against anyone who talks out against it.

I've given up on it a long time ago; about the time I realized so many of the ones being hurt the most felt some sort of love for Ronald Reagan.

They did a great job packaging Reagan and the public bought into it. The few times I heard him speak on his own it was obvious he didn't have a clue about what anything was really about.

One time was his trip to what was still Leningrad. He spoke live to a Russian audience and made references to Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid that he thought was pretty funny but no one in the audence reacted, they had no idea what he was talking about, they weren't Hollywood fluent. After a while he brought up the Soviet Jews and said perhaps the mistake was that they shouldn't have been permitted to live in isolation from the rest of the population. He compared them to the American Indians who shouldn't have been allowed to remain off by themselves in what he called, "Preservations!" -- The man had no idea whatever about the true existence of either group!

Later that day the uproar began from both American Jewish organizations and, of course, the American Indians. I'll bet they were surprised to learn they had chosen to isolate themselves in those enclosed areas.

I really do hate to say this, but I think the whole political setup is a shame and has been for ages.

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Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Puni-Worth --- Being a member of a Church, yet not believing in Christ risen? You don't believe the Bible yet want to join a so-called Christain organization? You're just another in-the-middle flip-flopper. Get a backbone. Mean what you say. Say what you mean. Either you're saved or you're lost.

Quit pumping the "Worker's of the World speech"......educate us by example by getting off your computer 14-hours a day & get a job.

Hey why so interested in other people: Are'nt you on church-duty this weekend serving soup? Get a grip, get some soup and go to the church and ask for forgiveness for your vicious statements.
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Originally posted by aesopo123:

Jersey,

I feel your pain man. A working stiff myself, and it so funny how how Ron is being deitified by republicans. Echoing earlier sentiments: Running the country into massive deficits, no problem! Mortgaging the future of your children, no problem! My anti-commie friends have death squads, no problem! I gut services for the poor, mentally ill, no problem! I trade missiles for hostages, no problem!

Yep, you can sum it all up if you ask Ron, no problem! May God have mercy on his soul.

Good point Aesopo.
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Kuniworth, since you insist:

Com·mu·nist

A member of a Marxist-Leninist party.

A supporter of such a party or movement.

A Communard. Often communist A radical viewed as a subversive or revolutionary. Often communist Relating to, characteristic of, or held to resemble communism or Communists. Communist Supporting, advocating, or serving to further communism: communist propaganda.

Link to Communist Manifesto:

http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

If you're not satisfied, do a search for "communist" & compared to "capitalist". Also, compare & contrast the history of the United States versus any Commie country of your choice.

http://www.yahoo.com/

http://www.google.com

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Jersey --- The sixties was a good time? Nothing but rebellion & pride. Those same hippies, woodstock fornicators, & commie wannabees are the ones driving the SUVs, sending jobs overseas, & not helping your unions. Where are the hippies protesting in the streets? They are Bill Clinton flag burnings sitting at work drooling over their 401K's.

Reagan fired those loser Air Traffic Controllers & broke those little whinners up, that's was wonderful. All those autoworkers in Michigan were lazy Commies too. A bunch of non-competitive Union members who cried over everything. That's why the Japanese whipped the US in the car industry. Go take a drive in Flint, Lansing, & Detroit see what good Socialist/Communists did.

Then you disrespect your own brother because he's in the financial industry? What a joke!!! Would you rather have Castro control all the industry?

This is sickening to hear crybabies complain in the United States.

Get a job & quit crying. There are plenty out there.

http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/

http://www.dice.com/

http://www.getajob.com

...and the crowd chanted for Reagan,"Four more Years, Four more Years, Four more Years!!!"

"I will not have anything to do with your politics. Unions are of the Devil". --- From the classic 1941 movie, 'How Green Was My Valley".

Kuni, get a haircut, a job, & quit believing all the Communist crap they are teaching at whatever college campus you're clinging too.

[ June 14, 2004, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

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Kuniworth --- I've seen your Anti-Bible, Anti-America, & Pro-Commie musical posted in the General Forum. You're a classless act, trying to associate the President of the United States George W. Bush, Pat Roberson, Jerry Falwell, & many other great Americans into the Klan.

Sickening...

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Alright, I've had enough.

Let me ask you, yeah you, whoever you are. Who promised you the necessities of life? Who told you, you are entitled to anything? You are given the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, emphasis on "pursuit". Did the Pilgrims tell the Indians, "where is my health care, where is my retirement program?" What were our ancestors promised as they headed West to explore, where is your pioneering spirit? You guys have had it too easy, my ass came in this world whipped to begin with, no one promised me anything and just like me, your not entitled to sh*t. Get out there and make something of your life, stop whining, and be optimistic. Above all be thankful for what you do have, cause just around the corner their are people waiting to take it away from you, plan accordingly.

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SeaMonkey

Nobody is talking about hand-outs.

Where talking about being sold-out.

There's a huge difference. It hasn't affected you and you don't understand the part I'm talking about.

I never asked the government for a damn thing in my life. But when an entire regine loses all it's industry, as the Northeast has, because of Government measures that have always made it easy for manufacturers to screw and finally abandon their employees then that's something else.

Please stop insinuating I'm talking about the government giving me handouts. I'm not, never was and to constantly have it implied is extremely insulting.

As for the role of the government, today all countries are tied together and it's too easy to set a factory up in an undeveloped nation to exploit cheap labor. In many cases the factories, after a few years in such a place, have been moved to where there is even cheaper labor!

I've been cheated out of two consecutive pension plans with companies I've been with for just under ten years. There was no recourse; none. You're laid off and your gone and you lose whatever you were working toward. I really would have like to have seen the government step in both times and say, well, this man has his accumulated benefits up to the 9 years and 8 or 11 months up to where you dismissed him. But it didn't. Things like that are absurd and hearing them being defended is like getting a combat boot up the ass.

[ June 14, 2004, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth either. Our family values were to take no handouts from the Government. One Grandfather came over (to the US) with $50, wife, & 3-kids, he never bitched & cried, had 2-jobs & had pride (the good kind). My other Grandfather was a dirt farmer, barely made it, but was happy. Materialism is overated, freedom & opportunity is underated. Get some character, get a job. Yes, I will take the Government benefits I've contributed too: Social Security (if it even exists in 30+ years) & Medicare (hopefully, I won't need it)......BUT I'm sure not going to sit on my "Blessed Assurance" waiting for Uncle Sam to help me. The abuse of the welfare system & unemployment insurance is sickening.

SeaMonkey --- Rack 'em, nice take.

Sir Jersey --- If there are no jobs in New Jersey worth a damn, then move. It's that simple, things change.

To the Young people in our Forum --- You'd better learn to save money, study in school, & work hard. Don't even get a credit card if you can't control yourself. Learn & enjoy hobbies which are cheap...like SC (only $25 & a monthly dial-up)

Luke 12: 24

Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?

Matt. 6: 19

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.

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JJ, I understand where you are coming from. I held one job 12 years 1971-1983, got laid off, got reinstated, one year later, got laid off. Found another job at less than half of what I made before. Had to move to Houston, left the house I built, my only one. Worked 3 different jobs in Houston, best one, company went bankrupt. Worked contract, no nothing of benefits, fed my two kids and kept my wife somewhat satisfied, not happy tongue.gif , but satisfied. Sent from coast to coast putting out fires, scrimped and saved, cut up credit cards, wife goes crazy :eek: . I have not held a job for more than 5 years at any one company, no retirement other than what I've put in iras, 401ks, etc,. I pay my own healthcare, I help when I can, I put my kids through college, I take care of my family, friends, I've developed skills to do anything, I have faith in my abilities. I have had many setbacks, stood in unemployment lines countless times. I adjust, I adapt, I compromise, I evolve. But you know what, I don't feel "sold out". I'm not monetarily wealthy, but I'm comfortable, course wife's not :rolleyes: I'll probably have to work for someone or something till I die, so what, I've smelled the flowers along the way and whether I have a penny to my name when I die or not, makes no difference, I will die a rich man and you have contributed to that richness, like many others in this forum, and yeah even you Kuni.

[ June 14, 2004, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

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Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Kuniworth, since you insist:

Com·mu·nist

A member of a Marxist-Leninist party.

A supporter of such a party or movement.

A Communard. Often communist A radical viewed as a subversive or revolutionary. Often communist Relating to, characteristic of, or held to resemble communism or Communists. Communist Supporting, advocating, or serving to further communism: communist propaganda.

The communist manifesto is the origin of socialist movements but it does not explaindifference between democratic socialism and socialdemocracy towards communism.

Why the hell do you keep insisting that I'm a communist? You have no idea what communism is, you just keep on dragging the old mccarthyism into the 21st century.

Im not a marxistbeliever but I obviously gotta explain to you that there is a difference between communism and socialism.

If you can't get this right you oughta be quiet. It's embarrising watching a sc-legend make an ass of himself accusing people of beeing communists while not knowing himself what it is.

And you say communists are marxist-leninists. Now how about the chinese communists? Last Ive looked they were not leninists but maoists.

To wrap this up;

Communist and socialist doesnt necessary mean the same thing

socialists comes in many shapes.

Socialdemocracy and other reform-movements got a marxist heritage but that doesnt make them communists or marxists.

FInally you oughta drop the holy book for just a sec and read Marx Das Kapital along with the communist manifesto to learn something new.

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Kuniworth --- I could careless about Marx, Lenin, Stalin, & Mao-Say-Chung's Little Red Devil Book. In a real American college, I studied American Ecnomics, Reaganomics, Finance, Math, Computers, & I currently love the stock market. You're hanging out at the local Swedish Communist/Socialist/Whateverist Camp, & have been brain washed to hate Republicans, Bush, Pat Robertson, etc. Get a clue, get a job.

Communism failed & it sucks. Remember,"You're not living in America, so don't worry about us." --- The Sounds.

The Europeans hate our beliefs, but THEY LOVE OUR DOLLAR BILLS.

SeaMonkey --- I'm with you on that Bro.

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Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Kuniworth --- I've seen your Anti-Bible, Anti-America, & Pro-Commie musical posted in the General Forum. You're a classless act, trying to associate the President of the United States George W. Bush, Pat Roberson, Jerry Falwell, & many other great Americans into the Klan.

Sickening...

Come on stop whining. I wrote that it sucked so shove it once more.
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General Rambo

"Sir Jersey --- If there are no jobs in New Jersey worth a damn, then move. It's that simple, things change."

No, it is not that simple. I'm 54 years old with just enough health problems to not be able to do manual labor jobs and too old to be considered for a job.

What's more I won a house and am married and can't just get up and relocate. Nor should I have to.

Thanks for the advice but that is the most mindless and insulting thing anyone here has said to this point. What you're talking about is what John Steinbeck wrote about in the Grapes of Wrath, where dust bowl farm owners went flooding to California with promises of work only to find they were not only being exploited but were actually met with open hostility when they got there.

You're a smart person but sometimes you don't give other people credit for having any smarts themselves. If it were that simple and I could have done it I'd have done so years ago. :mad:

In the larger picture that solution doesn't solve anything anyway, it only means the employers can continue playing the same game.

Aside from which the last place I worked for before I started up my own operation is an electronics company that moved to Mexico, where it is paying wages that are peon level with no benefits at all. No thanks.

-- BTW, while working that job I trained three Mexicans who barely spoke English. They in turn trained three other Mexicans, in MEXICO after our site was closed down. They did so in the middle of the week without telling anyone after not meeting the previous weeks' payroll.

Instead of helping other countries to meet what were once our fine standards we've turned ourselves into a third rate third world country. The only difference is our own poor happen to have tv sets and no, they aren't starving, they're eating carbohydrate based garbage because it's all they can afford.

Nice going, something we can all be proud of.

[ June 14, 2004, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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Sir Jersey --- If you have a home in New Jersey, you could sell it & move to a lower cost of living are in the US. Let say your house is worth $250,000 in New Jersey. You could get the same quality house for $125,000 in Idaho, Texas, & alot of other places. Then you'd have $40,000 for a NICE car/SUV & cash in hand smile.gif

Yes, I know you have had health issues (which may limit your actions), your situation is different. My original statement had to do with those who are able to work smile.gif

And by the way, I know you're a smart guy, we're just having a discussion smile.gif

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Sir Jersey --- Far as the Mexicans, Indians, & Chinese...Yes, they are stealing our jobs. The Politicians are allowing Big Business to take labor jobs overseas in order to help stock prices. That is a fact.

I voted for Ross Perot by the way who was the only one against NAFTA.

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Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Kuniworth --- I could careless about Marx, Lenin, Stalin, & Mao-Say-Chung's Little Red Devil Book. In a real American college, I studied American Ecnomics, Reaganomics, Finance, Math, Computers, & I currently love the stock market. You're hanging out at the local Swedish Communist/Socialist/Whateverist Camp, & have been brain washed to hate Republicans, Bush, Pat Robertson, etc. Get a clue, get a job.

Communism failed & it sucks.

Yes communism sucks and it doesnt work. No one ever said something else than that. Why do you keep on insisting that I say it works?

I understand if you don't care about Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao over any other communist leader but for God sake learn what you are talking about before you dismiss opinions and facts.

Ive studied political science for 2 years, economic history and national econmy at our university so quit the hulk hogan attitude.

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SeaMonkey

I'm glad -- and I really do mean that my friend -- that you're going with the flow.

I've been struggling for twenty years now after everything fell apart the first time. It's fallen apart three or four times since then and whatever I had left went into the business I started five years ago, which has never gotten off the ground because when an area has no middle level manufacturing companies it doesn't have a need for the business, such as mine, that feed into them.

What you're describing is an individual triumph and I'm glad you've attained it. But that isn't a system, it a society providing for it's own people. It would be easy to have such a society but we won't as long as we've got the current system.

If I were an empolyer and tried to pay decent wages with benefits I'd go out of business. This is where the Government has to step in with compulsury regulations so companies have to do this instead of treating people like migrant workers. The money that should go into these things instead goes into CEOs who receive $50-200 million dollar a year bonuses and half the time do some variant of the Enron gambit, just legal enough to avoid having the complacent government go after them.

The FIRST responsibility of any government is to it's citizens. That's all there is to it.

My further contribution to this extremely disturbing discussion is to lock my own part of it. I've said everything I've got to say on the matter and am now only moving in circles.

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I must say, this is the liveliest this forum has been in a longtime...thanks to our moderators for not locking it as it should have been done. And listen JJ, I was never insinuating you were taking handouts, just possibly your expectations are a little high. Remember I love you like a brother, I know you, nothing you can say or do can erase that fact. Didn't mean for you to feel picked on, my mistake, just trying to empower you and anyone else that feels downtrodden, cause Lord knows, I've been there. All I can say is "Gentleman" this is about unconditional love, love of life, it is the key, find the door and unlock it, dig deep, contemplate what that really means,"unconditional love".

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Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Yes, I know you have had health issues (which may limit your actions), your situation is different. My original statement had to do with those who are able to work smile.gif

Stop thinking the world is black and white. Stop judging people because they can't live up to your standards.

Forgive not condemn.

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