How could Germany have won WWII?

[Cantum Americus]

I recently finished a book, "How Hitler could have won WWII", by Devin Alexander. It raised some good points, and got me thinking:

Other than not attacking Russia, how could Germany (not just Hitler) have avoided defeat in WWII? I love historical debates, and I figure this one oughta be good.

[Comrade Trapp]

Crushing the British at Dunkirk would have been the easiest was I believe.

[Some_God]

Originally posted by Comrade Trapp:

Crushing the British at Dunkirk would have been the easiest was I believe.

Roger that... That and concentration on the Afrika campaign to cut of the British. If the Germans got Spain to join the Axis, Germany would have had fresh food for the meatgrinder.

Actually, under German supervision, the Spanish Army could have invaded Portugal and "The Rock" and cut off the Med. British men and materials would be cut off and England would fall to her knees. :eek:

[Panzer39]

Not declaring war on the USA after Peal Harbor might have helped. FDR would have had a hard time making Germany enemy number one or entering the war in Europe at all.

[JerseyJohn]

Panzer

Agreed, the United States could not have declared war on Germany and Italy. Perhaps later on it might have done so with the claim of German U-boats sinking United States cargo ships and destroyers but interestingly that had already come up -- twice! -- and American reaction was indignation that we even had our Navy and Merchant Marine involved in a volitile situation.

In the end this sort of discussion gets into very dubious areas depending upon who is defining victory and what they regard as facts.

For example, could Germany really have defeated Britain by dint of a more determined U-boat / surface raider war? I think so, but that's only an opinion. Winston Churchill and Karl Doenitz seem to have also had that opinion.

Was it really necessary for Germany to invade the USSR? No, I don't think so, not untill it had resolved the War with Britain, anyway. Hitler's main fear seems to have been that Stalin would make another move on Finland, talking his only supply of nickel, and a similar move on Romania, making him completely dependant on Russia for it's oil. He could probably have settled this by coming out and saying further moves in those directions would have been immediate cause for war.

The meeting with Molotov in Berlin was supposed to settle those issues, but the Soviet ambassador was very antagonistic and it only accelerated the war both sides had begun seeing as inevitable. Among other things, Stalin wanted the permanent and cheap lease of a railroad line running across Norther Finland into Norway to an ice-free Norwegian North Sea port. Not really unreasonable but for some reason this incensed Hitler and he had one of his rant episodes.

Some_God

Franco's main concern at the time was the support of his own people. The Spanish Civil War had only ended in 1939 and he felt it was too soon to ask them for further sacrifices.

Portugal's dictator, Salazar, was also a friend of the Axis and Germany benefitted in many ways be having Portugal neutral -- a lot of materials flowed in and out of it's ports that ended up in Germany. That would have stopped if it would have been either conquered or had joined the Axis.

[ April 24, 2004, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Kuniworth]

Hitler should have focused on destroying the red army around the soviet capitol during 1941 instead of repeatedly shifting priorities. Had Russia been defeated in 1941, world possibly have looked different than today.

If not attacking Russia the main thing to do would be to starve Britain to submission, focusing on blocade and build up for an invasion.

[ April 24, 2004, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[JerseyJohn]

I don't think there's much doubt that Germany could have won it during the initial stages of Barbarossa. Even worse than failing at the front lines, though, was the insane practice of letting the SS run amok behind the lines.

Germany, in many instances, won the battles but lost the war. A sane policy in the east making the removal of Stalin and his purges the focus might have pulled the rug out from under him. When it became apparent that the Nazis were even worse than the Socialists the opposite became true and it was the Germans who had to contend with a hostile population -- how could they have been anything other than hostile with SS men stealing their food and laughing while they yanked people out of each village and hanged them for sport. State ordered stupidity.

[jon_j_rambo]

Germany's mistakes ---

- Declaring war on the United States, we like a challenge.

- Air war against the British was a complete failure.

- North Africa was a pipe dream of a strategy. What the hell (heaven) was Rommel doing down their? Where they really going to drive to the Middle East, get some oil & bring it back to Berlin?

- 2 Army Groups in Russia might has been better well served than 3. Concertration of force, have a little patience when the going got tougher.

- Killing Jews & murdering civilians. Pretty pointless. Would be better off to come as a Liberator from the Commies, than take it out on women & childern. Actually, Hitler should have just waxed Russia & let the Western Allies alone. If he would have been anti-Commie ONLY, he might have been left alone.

[JerseyJohn]

Interesting General Rambo -- we wrote exactly the same thing at exactly the same time.

"- Killing Jews & murdering civilians. Pretty pointless. Would be better off to come as a Liberator from the Commies, than take it out on women & childern. Actually, Hitler should have just waxed Russia & let the Western Allies alone. If he would have been anti-Commie ONLY, he might have been left alone."

Not much different from:

"Even worse than failing at the front lines, though, was the insane practice of letting the SS run amok behind the lines.

Germany, in many instances, won the battles but lost the war. A sane policy in the east making the removal of Stalin and his purges the focus might have pulled the rug out from under him. When it became apparent that the Nazis were even worse than the Socialists the opposite became true and it was the Germans who had to contend with a hostile population -- how could they have been anything other than hostile with SS men stealing their food and laughing while they yanked people out of each village and hanged them for sport. State ordered stupidity."

[Some_God]

Yeah Rambo proved a point. The Jewish population in Germany was one of the most intelligent minorities in the country. The Jewish people, if they had not beein liquidated, might have served in the Wermacht or as scientists, making technological improvments faster then was the case during WW2.

[JerseyJohn]

By the Russian invasion it was a too late for the Nazis to have shifted gears. They'd already wasted the even more educated German and Austrian Jews who were much more solidly assimulated into the overall society than those of either Poland or Russia.

The Nazi Jewish Laws and policies were pointless and beyond all reason. Some apologists say it was to raise internal plunder to build weapons but his is nonsensical, implementing this stupidity did much more to hurt the countries productivity than it ever returned in confiscated possessions. Not counting the troops removed from the army, workers lost to factories and the extapolated identical loss in every country the Nazis came to control.

The list of scientists lost to Germany and Italy is staggering:

Albert Einstein, Enrico Fermi, Neils Bohr, Max Planck, Szillard and dozens of others by 1945; in the post war this continued with scientists such as Werner von Braun and others of the jet, rocket and nuclear fields going either east or west but, for the most part, being removed from their German homeland.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

Most of the reasons Hitler lost the war, in spite of what seems like the oft cited obvious ones, was mostly as a result of the oft not cited little reasons that actually counted.

Ok he had to attack Russia, might as well just accept it guys. it was inevitable. Communism was not going to be a buddy to Facism any more than it was after the war to capitalism eh.

But when Hitler attacked Russia, his ideology shot him in the foot.

All those Ukyranians that might have let him in as a liberator, even if it would have been a short lived scam, sure would have made a difference.

Not everyone inside Russia's borders, were there willingly eh. And remember, there were a lot of Baltic peoples that didn't join Russia, they were "absorbed" by Russia.

Then there is the war in the Mediteranean. If it had been the last use of German and Italian Paratroops taking out Malta, would it have mattered? Malta was likely the last straw in the Axis attampt to take North Africa.

Of course, it would have helped if Hitler had at least really given a damn about North Africa.

That Rommel got famous in North Africa was Rommel's doing, not Hitler's eh. If the man had not been a genuis, the war in North Africa likely would have fizzled 2 years earlier than it did.

So just not really caring about North Africa doomed the whole Mediteranean theatre in time.

Then there was the notion it would not last. Hitler went into the war with the idea it would soon be over.

If he had geared his nation for total war in 39, it is likely he would not have been constantly over matched by 42.

He made some awesome tanks, but then took them too far.

He made the jet fighter, but couldn't accept it was a lousy bomber.

He never did make a heavy bomber.

His navy was never intended to do anything better than harrass, it was never set up to actually fight.

He could have done more with just subs, than subs and pointless surface weapons.

So in the end, I don't think it was the big flashy looking decisions, it was the minor ones that really did him in.

[Some_God]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:

That Rommel got famous in North Africa was Rommel's doing, not Hitler's eh. If the man had not been a genuis, the war in North Africa likely would have fizzled 2 years earlier than it did.

Today it is known, by the grogs not the common folks, that the only reason Rommel won all those stunning victories in North Afrika was because German High Command (OKW) intercepted Allied transmisions about their activities in the area.

Rommel lost because he was low on everything and the Allies know what he was doing thanks to Ultra, the British Enigma-cracking, beer-guzzling Intelligence branch..

[JerseyJohn]

Well I guess I'm a non-participant in these conversations. The hell with it, you guys can all talk to yourselves, I've tried to extend the coutessy of interacting but I'm tired of talking to myself, I'm out of here.

[Some_God]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Well I guess I'm a non-participant in these conversations. The hell with it, you guys can all talk to yourselves, I've tried to extend the coutessy of interacting but I'm tired of talking to myself, I'm out of here.

There is no discussion with the stuff you say... cuz its all true.

[JerseyJohn]

Aw you're just trying to make me feel good and you've succeeded.

Terific Thread with a lot of interesting discuussions.

Many thanks, off to watch TV with the wife and her boyfriend. :eek:

[Comrade Trapp]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Well I guess I'm a non-participant in these conversations. The hell with it, you guys can all talk to yourselves, I've tried to extend the coutessy of interacting but I'm tired of talking to myself, I'm out of here.

Where did that come from.......

You were watching TV with Marion again, weren't you.

Many thanks, off to watch TV with the wife and her boyfriend.

This is never good, history has shown that bad things happen when you watch TV with Marion, nothing good ever comes from it.

[ April 24, 2004, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Comrade Trapp ]

[Panzer39]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

The list of scientists lost to Germany and Italy is staggering:

Albert Einstein, Enrico Fermi, Neils Bohr, Max Planck, Szillard and dozens of others by 1945; in the post war this continued with scientists such as Werner von Braun and others of the jet, rocket and nuclear fields going either east or west but, for the most part, being removed from their German homeland.

The nazi's nuke Moscow, than London, than fly over in a Horten Stealth Bomber and Nuke New York and DC. Hitler's face glows, as does the rest of the World

[Panzer39]

I think if Germany and Japan had worked more closely together things might have gone differently. Japan launches an attack directed solely at the UK and leaves the USA alone. They move into India, take on a large portion of the Royal Navy. Afterwards, Japan attacks the USSR, Japan gets its ass kicked, but ties down the Siberian army. UK sues for peace, Germany and Japan duke it out dividing the former UK possessions

[JerseyJohn]

Comrade

You're right I was inside watching TV with them four less than an hour and had to come back. I don't know what it is but for some reason the two of them can't be comfortable with me sitting in the middle.

Strange day, kept going on and off-line and popping into the GF where I've been cornered extolling the good points of Neville Chamberlain -- which exhausted itself pretty quickly. The alternate Thread was General Rambo stirring up all the unholies with his Jesus talk. Got trapped in that one as well, every half hour or so Marion would pop in to see if I was working -- I've to get a job away from the damn computer, maybe digging ditches so I can bring a notebook PC with me and -- well, maybe it's better just ducking the wife all day and minimising this stuff when she comes in with my time card.

Then back here where I finally became strung out. But now I'm much better, really -- my medication, where'd I leave it.

Guess I should wander back in and watch some more TV with her. Hopefully the damn thing will break in the middle of a Baywatch rerun.

Panzer

"The nazi's nuke Moscow, than London, than fly over in a Horten Stealth Bomber and Nuke New York and DC. Hitler's face glows, as does the rest of the World."

You're way ahead of my pace, I wasn't that nuts till around age forty-five!

What a fricken vision -- now I'll have nightmares all night long -- I mean if I weren't an insomniac and doomed to be awake watching reruns of inane TV shows with Marion.

Actually -- what I said above isn't quite true, in 1962 with the Cuban Missle Crisis. I was thirteen and screwing around with war games in Brooklyn, hoping to finish the one I was working on before we were nuked. I remember wondering if I'd know it was happening, maybe a little heat and then nothing. I was a introverted miserable kid at the time (see drawing in profile) and probably wouldn't have been too upset about the world coming to an end.

That was a similar vision to the one in your post. Hey, thanks for putting me back in touch that Golden Memory!

Agreed with that German-Japanese cooperation scenario. As it was Germany didn't tell the Japanese about Barbarossa, Japan didn't tell Germany about Pearl Harbor and Mussolini wanted his Greek adventure to be a surprise for Hitler. It was, he was on the verge of signing a treaty with them when Mussolini came waddling out of Albania during the rainy season!

The Axis would definitely have done much better if they'd coordinated their actions. I think that was what both Churchill and Roosevelt were most afraid of. If they had cooperated like that I think they'd have won the war for certain.

[ April 25, 2004, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[earlof white22]

I agree totally with the idea of cooperation between Japan and Germany. What if the Japanese had given their air torpedo specs to the germans in return for tank plans. Imagine the Japanese with modern tanks/divisions attacking Siberia or Australia. What if the germans had those torpedos on the Stukas- would the Brit navy have lasted. Would the Murmansk run have been possible?

Also there is the fact that the Germans never did seem to understand mass war production- on a scale anywhere near what the USA and USSR were doing. Think about all the different types and variations of just tanks alone the germans tried to produce.

I dont know if any of these ideas plus the ones offered by you guys above would have won the war- but it could have been alot more costly for the good guys.

[JerseyJohn]

Earlof White

Absolutely. Also, imagine the Japanese Navy with German radar technology!

There wasn't even good cooperation between the Germans and Italians -- Italy with radar would never have been surprised at Taranto. Germany had no heavy bomber technology -- Italy did, though they were never able to produce them in numbers. A simple exchange of basic skills would have helped both of them out immensely.

Good point about German production, they really missed the boat on that one. Hitler tried to make up for it with massive slave labor -- a true medieval solution and identical to the ideas of his non-blood cousin Joe Stalin.

[jon_j_rambo]

What was Hitler's opinion of the Asian races?

[JerseyJohn]

Not high at all, except even in Mein Kampf he says the Japanese were an Aryan tribe that went east instead of west.

He held the British in India, the French in South East Asia and the Dutch in the East Indies (Indonessia) up as examples of the natural order of whites controlling all other races.

He was especially impressed with the Brits in India (and Pakistan/Bengaladesh) as an example of a few hundred thousand white people controling hundreds of millions of Asians.

[Panzer39]

Japanese Carriers bomb Scapa Flow instead of Pearl Harbor. Time to make another scenario that a handfull of people will enjoy