SC2 - Atomic Bomb Option

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Kelly's Heroes:

Dropping the two bombs on Japan convinced the Japanese that further resistance was utterly futile. Ironically, the dropping of the bombs on Japan in fact SAVED the lives of millions of people, mostly Japanese.

I will simply say that... there WAS another way.

If you blockaded the island, where were all those civilians and demoralized military going to go?

Up in tea-leaf-ceremony smoke?

Even if you had to hold the blockade for a year, why be so impatient to annihilate other innocent humans?

Why be in a rush, then or now, to run the blood plow through the killing fields?

Sooner than later, the Japanese would have run out of some very basic items of existence.

Who cares if they had to stay on the home islands... forever even?

What cost to USA's Pacific Fleet and Marines?

(... my Dad fought all the way across those Pacific islands like Guadalcanal and Tarawa and Iwo Jima, so I am NOT personally unaware of what frightening cost was involved, nosir, nosiree, not by a long shot... )

Well,

IF the great and hungry mass of Japanese NON MILITARY folks had really wanted to end the blockade, they had the sheer numbers, true?

They couldn't over-whelm the cadre of resistant soldiers?

It's what I would do.

May in fact have to one day actually do.

I am aware of history repeating itself, at least. :eek:

Why assume a history that couldn't possibly happen?

It's equally as conceivable that the blockade WOULD have worked.

For now, we have to deal with a historical fait d' accompli.

President Truman made an extremely tough decision.

It's not one I would have made, but, there you have it.

Always!

Better, IMHO, to spare the innocents.

Japanese.

Americans.

Germans.

ALL are part of the collective "web of life."

No'one who are non-combatants has any instrinsic

Worth that is somehow more or less valuable.

Those who died in Hamburg and Dresden and Hiroshima and Nagasaki WERE NOT hands-on authors or instigators of ANY atrocities.

Other than the usual situation, which exists all over the World to this day.

ALLOWING belligerent and bellicose and chauvanistic and nationalistic and xenophobic leaders to have their almost-insane way... IE, the "good German" syndrome.

Ridiculous?

Yes, KH, I am, at times.

So is everyone, so far as I can see.

It ain't limited to merely me, no sir, nosiree... LOL!

[Kelly's Heroes]

You forget several things:

1) The Japanese had millions of troops in China and were still fighting and killing there. Many more thousands of Chinese would have died, while Americans "sat around" on blocade.

Where is your sympathy for them?

2) You are assuming a great deal. The Japanese would have used gardens, and if low on food, they would have eaten bamboo shoots.

If it looked like they were going to starve to death, then they would have unleashed between 12,0000 and 15,000 suicide planes, thousands of suicide boats, subs, craft, etc on Americans on blocade.

3) Sitting on blocade would have allowed the Soviets to enter the fighting for Japan. And we all know the end result of that type of experience from Eastern Europe and the Cold War.

4) Sitting on blocade would have allowed the Japanese to build even better defences. They would not have given up.

You clearly do not understand the Japanese war mentality of the time. Japan was gearing up to commit national suicide.

Japan had a slogan in 1945: "100 million martyrs".

By your logic, it is better that 100 million Japanese starve to death, than to lose 100,000 in bombings?

[ March 24, 2004, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

[Desert Dave]

The Japanese had millions of troops in China and were still fighting and killing there. Many more thousands of Chinese would have died, while Americans "sat around" on blocade.

Good that we can discuss this topic without any perjorative or otherwise personally insulting labels, yes?

It is the mark of grace, and civilized manner.

Anyway, just HOW would the Japanese have supported a million man army without any militarily specific war supplies?

They would somehow leech them out of the Chinese soil?

And so, the Chinese weren't already gaining the upper hand, pushing the Japanese back to the China Sea coast?

If it looked like they were going to starve to death, then they would have...

How do you know?

Told in a billowing whisper... on a divine wind?

You are making "after-the-fact" assumptions.

Sitting on blocade would have allowed the Soviets to enter the fighting for Japan.

It would?

Through the American blockade?

As the Soviets wouldn't do, 17 years later in Cuba?

Why then and not later?

I am fair satisfied that the Soviets, as recent DOCUMENTS have revealed, were much more fearful and ignorantly mistrustful of the USA than heretofore disclosed, yes?

**(... whether due to the dropped... "Death, Destroyer of Worlds," we don't know... some have supposed that all this was some kind of Show... if so, that would be, now until Doomsday... simply unforgivable... which brings to mind, why not a "demonstration" on uninhabited land?)

Japan had a slogan in 1945: "100 million martyrs".

I do believe that was in the event that the Allies invaded their home country.

I am not convinced that all those kamikazes and other assorted suicidal pacts would have been ancestor honored.

Why do you believe they would have been?

And, more importantly, and given the Zen Buddhist nature of the majority of citizens, why would they have been even HALF as fanatical as you are apparently suggesting?

My understanding is that, at a particular "breaking point" all of that mindless War hysteria & anxiety would have MOSTLY evaporated.

Conclusion:

I can't for the life of me see where my understanding is any LESS cogent than yours, pardon.

By your logic, it is better that 100 million Japanese starve to death, than to lose 100,000 in bombings?

It isn't merely or mostly LOGIC that I employ, as you likely full well know by now.

It is also "intuition" or plain old "common sense," which, as we know, has little resemblance to Socratic-limited logic.

You are assuming that it would ever get to that point, presuming a blockade.

I do not assume that.

All of that kind of "hindsight" seems to me to be justification and rationales.

WE DON'T KNOW that the Japanese wouldn't have just given up the ghost at some point in the blockade.

Therefore, I conclude that neither one of us KNOWS (... since, the syllogism goes: Socrates was a man; I am a man, therefore: I am Socrates LOL!... we KNOW that ain't remotely true!)

just what would have happened.

Upshot: I am merely stating my opinion.

So are you.

I aver: a blockade WOULD have worked.

That is equally viable as you saying: A blockade would not have worked, no matter all your careful and considerable rhethorical skills.

Meantime, we can EACH and BOTH enjoy the upcoming adventure known as... SC2!! :cool:

[Liam]

There are arguments that the Japanese surrendered due to the fact they were facing 2 atomic bombs and a Huge taskforce of Allied Forces comming for the Home Island from one side. The Soviets comming into Manchuria China from the other.

I think there is some hope that despite the fanatical Kamikaze attitude going on in Japan some of the leadership knew it was hopeless and that's what happened ultimately. Did the Americans ever Beta an A-Bomb for the Japanese, I don't recall if that happened?

I know my GrandFather on my English side was serving over there in the Pacific Theatre before you Americans wanted to get your feet wet and we were telling you about Pearl ages before it happened. The Japenese probably killed 20 Million Chinese, they got what they deserved as the Germans likely killed as many more Russians.

I'd of not lost a Million boys lives as a General for no reason. War is Hell. Only save World Destruction

[Kelly's Heroes]

Immer Etwas:

If you want to know what the Japanese would have done in 1945, all you need to do is study Japanese actions in the Pacific War from 1937 to 1945.

In addition, read the American military's own estimates of what an invasion of Japan would have cost. Any google search will turn that up.

Again, all I can say is that your statements, while wonderful in a perfect world, simply defy both the situation in the Pacific as well as the Japanese attitude to being invaded.

Pick up a good book on the Pacific War; read what happened on Iwo Jima and Okinawa; find out about the Japanese soldier; the Way of the Samuari; Bushido; and the Japanese attitudes towards their Emperor, to outsiders, and towards the war itself.

Once you have done all that, you will soon see the Japanese would have rather killed themselves, starved to death, or flung themselves at the Americans, rather than submit to a blocade. . .

Cheers!

[ March 24, 2004, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Immer --- I understand what your trying to stay, grace & all that, but in this case.......NUKE 'EM. My Uncle Charlie was in the US Navy & fought the Japs. He died in 1988 after a nice, long, happy life. His life was worth all of those Japs that were nuked. Tough cookies. The neighbor down the street, named Al, also fought the Japs, he died of a nice long natural death in 1999. I'd rather have both of them than the murderous Japs. Don't stick my Uncle & my neighbor in some rubber boat when a fat nuke can take care of the job. The Japs started it, we finished it.

You quote grace, that is good. Grace only comes from the One Person. But did Grace stop David from finishing off Goliath? Did Grace stop the fire & brimstone at Sodom & Gomorah? When the Prince of Peace returns, will he blockade the non-believers? Read the Book of Joshua for what they were commanded. Governments have the obiligation & responsibility to collect taxes, protect their people, & do what is necessary. To everything there is a season.....this was the time for war. If the Japs were really that concerned about their lives, their children, etc...then they would have raised the flag of surrender. Japanese pride was the problem of WW-2 in the Pacific.

[Skanvak]

Liam,

Kamikaze were not fanatical, it was a strategy devised by the military leadership. Actually the leadership was fanatical, as a last time coup try to prevent the Emperor and part of the leaderships from surrendering prove it. I believe that the population was resigned to their death rather than fanitacal.

About the Kamikaze, a recent article demonstrate that they were socialy compelled to volunteer. The evidencs referred in the articles tend to show that most kamikaze at a last moment wish to avoid death, and most were not really aiming at the carrier.

Rambo, re-read your first paragraph, I can't comment it. Even thought I think I am on the same ligne as Kelly's on the A-Bomb's topic.

[ March 25, 2004, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Skanvak ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Skanks --- You don't understand? It's simple: I'd rather have a neighbor friend & my Uncle live there lives (by Nuking the enemy), then for them to die as kids invading Japan.

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey

Just looking through and saw your post on page 5 -- appreciated and likewise My Brother.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

You quote grace, that is good. Grace only comes from the One Person. But did Grace stop David from finishing off Goliath?

LOL! No, grace did not stop the small but willfully determined David from slaying that imposing biblical Giant... however,

Grace might refine over time. Each human may achieve, earn, learn, apprehend and then!

Display a saving grace that takes the shape

Of... kind and careful consideration. :cool:

____________________

I understand what you say about your family... my Dad fought on most of those jungled and volcanic rock islands in the east and south Pacific.

Long ago, I remember (... quite accidentally, of course!) discovering two historical things that he had quite deliberately hidden away... out of plain sight:

1) A tattered and blood-flecked Japanese rising sun flag... when I first unfolded it and held it softly in my callow hands... I had this oh, sort of second sight, all about the tremendous sacrifice that those in the WW2 generation made... mostly for... us, the next and future generations.

2) A box full of medals, there sure were a lot of them, BUT... he NEVER wore any, NOT EVEN to specific or special "parade occasions."

It was one of, if not THE best instruction I have ever received... no need, no, not EVER a need to glory in or blithely glamorize a declared and necessary war.

Well, since he had been aboard a troop ship waiting for orders to gut-it-up and land on the Japanese mainland, I am VERY glad he didn't have to do that, else

I might not even be here.

My son might not even be here.

Some, perhaps even one or two on this forum board might say, hooray to that!

LOL! No, I AM very glad that he didn't have to invade Japan.

It is a luxury, perhaps even a conceited indulgence for me to NOW "second-guess" those who fought in, or made terrible tough decisions about... WW2.

I TRY not to seek back and question this or that, but, maybe it is like KH has suggested... I am still searching, searching for a better, more lasting kind of... David-Goliath... grace.

Selah...

[Skanvak]

Rambo,

I understand that and somewhat agree. So why not put it like this in the first place? (If you need an explanation on what was shocking, e-mail me).

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> As originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

You quote grace, that is good. Grace only comes from the One Person. But did Grace stop David from finishing off Goliath?

LOL! No, grace did not stop the small but willfully determined David from slaying that imposing biblical Giant... however,

Grace might refine over time. Each human may achieve, earn, learn, apprehend and then!

Display a saving grace that takes the shape

Of... kind and careful consideration. :cool:

____________________

I understand what you say about your family... my Dad fought on most of those jungled and volcanic rock islands in the east and south Pacific.

Long ago, I remember (... quite accidentally, of course!) discovering two historical things that he had quite deliberately hidden away... out of plain sight:

1) A tattered and blood-flecked Japanese rising sun flag... when I first unfolded it and held it softly in my callow hands... I had this oh, sort of second sight, all about the tremendous sacrifice that those in the WW2 generation made... mostly for... us, the next and future generations.

2) A box full of medals, there sure were a lot of them, BUT... he NEVER wore any, NOT EVEN to specific or special "parade occasions."

It was one of, if not THE best instruction I have ever received... no need, no, not EVER a need to glory in or blithely glamorize a declared and necessary war.

Well, since he had been aboard a troop ship waiting for orders to gut-it-up and land on the Japanese mainland, I am VERY glad he didn't have to do that, else

I might not even be here.

My son might not even be here.

Some, perhaps even one or two on this forum board might say, hooray to that!

LOL! No, I AM very glad that he didn't have to invade Japan.

It is a luxury, perhaps even a conceited indulgence for me to NOW "second-guess" those who fought in, or made terrible tough decisions about... WW2.

I TRY not to seek back and question this or that, but, maybe it is like KH has suggested... I am still searching, searching for a better, more lasting kind of... David-Goliath... grace.

Selah... </font>

[JerseyJohn]

Has anyone mentioned that the U. S. is still using the Purple Hearts that were originally made for that projected campaign?

[Curry]

Jersey, are you serious? That is incredible to think about.

My dad has two of them but from the European front. The battle of Metz and the battle of the bulge. Patton's army.

[ March 25, 2004, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Curry ]

[JerseyJohn]

Curry,

As they say, who can make something like that up?

I think the Dept of War obtained a million Purple Heart medals in anticipation of the final Campaign.

No doubt, through Korea, Vietnam and the other things we've still got a few left even today.

[BuddyLee]

It's pretty well accepted now that the Japanese were seriously considering surrender before the 2 bombs were dropped.

The Americans and Japanese had agreed on all surrender demands with one exception. The Emperor staying on as emperor. The US wanted him in custody. The Japanese wanted him to stay put. After 2 atomic bombs the Japanese held firm. The Americans, after signaling the world of their ability to make and willingness to use atomic weapons, decided to drop the demand and accept surrender w/ Hirohito allowed to remain.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by BuddyLee:

It's pretty well accepted now that the Japanese were seriously considering surrender before the 2 bombs were dropped.

The Americans and Japanese had agreed on all surrender demands with one exception. The Emperor staying on as emperor. The US wanted him in custody. The Japanese wanted him to stay put. After 2 atomic bombs the Japanese held firm. The Americans, after signaling the world of their ability to make and willingness to use atomic weapons, decided to drop the demand and accept surrender w/ Hirohito allowed to remain.

Really?

Well, here is something the Liberal media and Liberal professors won't tell you:

1) The Japanese had almost 13,000 Kamikaze planes waiting for the Americans

2) They had hundreds of suicide boats ready

3) Women and children were being trained in suicide missions.

4) Hundreds of thousands of Japanese soldiers were being moved to the probable invasion sites and were digging in.

5) In Dec/1944, Germany agreed to send to Japan nuclear material, dismantled V-2 rocket parts,and dismantled Me-262 jet fighters, plus scientists.

The U-234 left Germany for Japan in March/1945 carrying 1,200 pounds of uranium oxide, in addition to all of the other material I mentioned above.

Had U-234 reached Japan, and had Japan been able to use this uranium, there is no telling what type of "surprise" they could have had waiting for American troops.

We can only thank our lucky stars that America developed the A Bomb first, and ended the war quickly.

Here is more on the U-234:

The Nazi submarine U-234, which surrendered to U.S. forces in May 1945, was found to be carrying a diverse cargo bound for Tokyo as part of a secretive exchange of war materiel between Hitler and Hirohito.

The payload represented the pride of German technology and included parts and blueprints for proximity fuzes, antiaircraft shells, jet planes and chemical rockets.

But nothing the U-234 concealed in its warrens was more surprising than 10 containers filled with 1,200 pounds of uranium oxide, a basic material of atomic bombs. Up to then, the Allies suspected that both Nazi Germany and imperial Japan had nuclear progr ams but considered them rudimentary and isolated.

Historians have quietly puzzled over that uranium shipment for years, wondering, among other things, what the U.S. military did with it. Little headway was made because of federal secrecy.

http://vikingphoenix.com/public/JapanIncorporated/1895-1945/nzisub4j.htm

[Kelly's Heroes]

There is also a "revisionist" movement currently at work to whitewash Japan's past, thus portraying it as the victim, while making America appear as the aggressor/bad guy.

Read this below:

International Scholars’ Appeal

Concerning the 2002-Edition Japanese History

Textbooks

(Inaugurated on July 10, 2001)

We the undersigned support the efforts of Japanese historians, educators, and citizens to ensure that textbooks are consistent with values of peace, justice, and truth. We join them in protesting the recent decision of the Japanese Ministry of Education and Science to approve a new textbook that tramples on these values.

We refer to Nishio Kanji et al., Atarashii Rekishi Kyokasho, a new junior high history textbook written by a group of right-wing nationalists and published by Fusosha. Although historians and educators inside and outside Japan raised important questions about the text, it passed Japanese government textbook screening in early Spring 2001 and is now approved for use in 2002 in junior high schools.

History textbooks and instruction are the primary means whereby younger generations learn about their past. Indeed, for many people, school textbooks provide the most systematic introduction to the past that they will ever receive. Textbooks should, therefore, provide students with truthful accounts that reflect the finest achievements of historical research. This is all the more important in Japan, since school textbooks bear a government imprimatur because of Japan’s system of government screening.

History textbooks are not merely the repository of society’s understanding of the past; they also convey what we as a society choose to remember and represent as the core of civic knowledge. They convey to students ideas about local, national, and global citizenship, and thereby help to shape our future. It is precisely because of this characteristic of textbooks that their content has been so fiercely contested, particularly during the last half century and more in Japan as elsewhere.

At the dawn of the twenty-first century, we recognize the mistakes committed by the human race in the last century, including the atrocities associated with colonialism and war. Reconciliation and reorientation to build a new global community in which humanity prevails are our urgent tasks. It is, therefore, imperative that school textbooks present knowledge and values that contribute to making our world more democratic, peaceful, and just.

The new Japanese history textbook Atarashii Rekishi Kyokasho is unfit as a teaching tool because it negates both the truth about Japan’s record in colonialism and war and the values that will contribute to a just and peaceful Pacific and world community. Its chauvinistic history, in overemphasizing what its authors call the “bright side” of the nation and disregarding the “dark side,” fundamentally distorts the history of Japan and Asia. Here we call attention to only the most egregious examples (see the information sheet for additional details).

· The textbook legitimizes the Japanese colonization of Korea in terms of the need to protect Japanese security and economic interests. It provides little discussion of Japan’s colonial policies of repression and exploitation of Koreans and Taiwanese, who experienced decades of colonial rule.

· It describes the Japanese invasion of China and other Asian countries in the 1930s and 1940s as an “extension of the battle line” or “advance,” eschewing the term “aggression.” Ignoring the heavy toll in human lives suffered by the victims of nations that Japan invaded during the “Greater East Asian War” and the Japanese subjugation of Asian people, it strongly suggests that the war was aimed at the liberation of Asian nations from (western) colonization.

· It details war atrocities committed by the Allied forces and Nazi Germany, while virtually ignoring Japan’s own (e.g., the cruel experiments of the biological warfare unit 731 and the massacre of the Chinese population in Singapore). It refers to the Nanjing Massacre but minimizes its importance by referring to “points of doubt” about the event.

· It ignores completely the enslavement of tens of thousands of “comfort women” as sexual slaves of the Japanese military.

All nations have disgraceful chapters in their histories. Teaching history today requires comparative and international perspectives that help students examine and reflect on such problems. We should not forget painful events but learn from them, because such lessons are the first step toward reconciliation. Like our colleagues in Japan, we too face important historical issues that we have yet to deal with effectively in our textbooks and in public discourse. But we join them now in expressing concern about the ideological orientation of this textbook and the effects it will have both in (mis)educating students and poisoning the relationship between Japan and neighboring countries that experienced Japanese invasion and rule.

http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/center/english/appeal1.htm

[ March 26, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Guess what? This is no surpirse.....I don't care about the Japs. They bombed Pearl Harbor & killed our countrymen sleeping in the Battleship Arizona. We nuked them, because we could. I don't care about the history books, beliefs, or whatever.

You mess with the United States, you get a Mushroom. Israel ain't going to fall without dropping a couple either

[Skanvak]

Buddy Lee,

Do you have references about the issue you raised? (not internet one, but books or publication).

[Slapaho]

The problem in Japan was that the military were in control and did not want to end the war, even after the two bombs were dropped. The civilian members of the Japanese government had already tried (unsuccessfully) to broker peace through their Russian envoy, as the USA would only accept the complete surrender and abdication of the Japanese Emperor. The fact that the Russians witheld vital information from the USA about the Japanese peace approach did not help, the fact is (according to Roosevelts own diary, Japans refusal to concur with the Potsdam Declaration meant that they faced 'utter destruction'. Kyoto - the origonal target for the 1st bomb was rejected on grounds of preserving Japans 'spiritual heart' shows that even in the picking of targets for destruction, post war thoughts were in the mind of the USA. Hiroshima was primarily on the list due to the lack of PoW known to be present in the city. It is believed around 20 US prisoners were actually killed in Hiroshima.

If you want books to read, then read Roosevelts memoirs, Churchills, Molotovs etc. Also, the national archives for most countries have the documents from that time open to public viewing.

So where it can be argued that the civilian members of the Japanese council were suing for peace (and the emperor is also shown to want to end the war), the fact is the military ran the government and they most certainly did not want to end the war. If you read the Japanese government documents of the time, the generals were more concerned about the Russian agression than the nuclear bombs that were dropped.

[Liam]

First off, a lot of people bring up the fanatical Japanese as being something of a new and unique quality.<do you keep seeing that History channel special the Samurai and the Swatika?> Well, I think we've seen even with the German's on almost all Fronts, a bit as fanatical on the Axis side at least???<After the Humiliation and mass Ideology they were not exactly surrendering after 50% casualties cause they were motivated to the death, only some of the elder and less fanatical Germans saved them from being considered much worse> The British holding out alone during the Battle of Britian and N.Atlantic Campaign that was bleak at the time for them, as being partially fanatical. Outnumbered what 3 to 1 in the Air? Starving for Supplies... Down to a can of spam and no real Army to fight the Germans if they landed. Mother Russia, "the WW2 Fanatical Cup Winner." Paying 20-35 Million Souls for victory, the Great Patriotic War<a front for Stalin's wish to remain in power, his Personal War against Hitler. Although ultimately a deciding factor in the end of the Reich and good for us Western Allies>

Secondly,

No New brand Jet would've saved Japan, they would've came much too late. The Germans and Japanese weren't working together enough early on to make any other scenario possible. I've seen a few shows on Japenese jets, they were fairly 'aero dynamic' and 'effective' designs. Nothing they could've employed though against the US or UK Navys back in WW2 that would've turned the tide. The Japanese had shortages and the US Bombers would've smashed their industry and Airfields to a pulp. Having to attempt to mass produce that stuff underground is slow and tedious. The Special Projects by Both the Japanese Goverments and German ones are favorable towards ending the War earlier for them. If for all those Special projects one or the other could've pumped out.. say for Germany, 10,000 ME109s with 2 or 3 thousand Pilots... That may have pushed back the Western Allies a Season... The Japanese could've put out say 150 Mini Subs<they would've had an immediate effectiveness and if lucky could've tagged a few Mainline Carriers and thrown bigger blow that Midway>The Japanese Kamikaze had mixed effectiveness. Luckily for us, American's were very good at putting out fires on their Carriers and warships... Or that damage could've been far more extensive. As for Japanese Jets, even a couple thousand would've been massacred in little packs by Corsairs that were almost fast as Jets. or P-51Ds

Lastly, you have to realize America was a friggin' Industry Nut like Russia. Once either of these nations got a pumping the other Nations were going to fall behind. Just like we find in SC, if you lose the MPP balance, unless you're a strategic Genius or get nothing but luck you'll lose. The Germans and Japenese both initially relied heavily on luck, massive undertakings that the Allies didn't expect, good sound Tactical moves that payed off. Ultimately their strategic decisions left much to be desired after France for Germany. She took a bad shot at England lost a bunch of Pilots and Fighters and turned East. In the East she never really took 1 of the Major Cities of the USSR Leningrad/Stalingrad/Moscow when she could've easily taken at least 2 IMO if she didn't fiddle... That may have caused that war to be more in decision. With Japan she lashed out at the Americans with the thought that longterm she could make up for her losses with Indies and Asian Metal/Oil/Rubber. Bad Idea. the USA came back with a vengeance and the Japanese fumbled after Pearl...

to Sumise. I was told my Grand Father never spoke of his experiences in Asia, they were really really bad. He fought with the Nepalese, I have a knife they used. Has a sight on it for throwing, and it takes heads off they don't remove it without drawing blood either. The Japenese were taking on more than they could handle, and the just because they were fanatical doesn't mean those around them weren't some tough cookies. Chinese, UK Allied and US forces were too much. Throw Russia on that and I don't see the Japanese Point of view at all. Some real fools in their Goverment. 2 Atomics back then wasn't the End of the World, could lead to it now now with tens of thousands of Nukes out there and much more Powerful. it's a pity that people died from it, but War is Hell. I like the ole saying,

"In love and in War there ain't no Rules!"

[Skanvak]

I globally agree with the idea that the enemy of the Japanese were tough too.

I should say thought that the Japanese army did have a kind of samurai spirit of no surrender. For ex : from japanese sources, prisonner of war who returned from china were suggested to commit suicide because they have dishonored their family (after the end of the war). But I think that is not the kind of western fanatism we know. It was more a social pressure to fight to the death because not doing so was a (Great) shame for the family and the country. 70 years before the war it was commonly accepted (and expected) that defeated generals and soldiers should commit suicide.

On Russia on the other hand I will disagree. They were as good warrior as the others, but their fanatism came greatly from the political commmisar. Russian soldiers surrendered as any other troops. The German took a huge number of prisonners.

The Russian economy was weak too. It was the US lend lease that save russia. Until Stalingrad Stalin were ready to negociate peace with Hitler (except his removal of power). Part of the huge number of death resulted from the disorganization of russian agricultral sector after Stalin's reforms and it was an economic decision to let starve the common citizen to feed the army. Russains fought well but mainly because they had no other choice left.

On a military point of view their resistance was good but it is the intervention of the US that break the Axis back (for the reason you stated). To quote an article "The german always withdrawned unit from the eastern front to send them to the western one, never the other way round" (Vae Victis don't remind the issue).

[Desert Dave]

...the Japanese army did have a kind of samurai spirit of no surrender.

This isn't QUITE correct.

SOME of the soldiers, Officers and Politicians mostly (... ah so, grasshopper, as is EVER the case), did assume this unyielding Sepaku stance.

To extrapolate and suggest that a majority of the soldiers also adhered MERELY and ONLY... to a "suicidal Samurai spirit" would be in error.

And, to further suggest that MOST of the civilians would go so far as to sacrifice their homes and family... BECAUSE the warrior encoded Officers might ask or even order them to... belies everyday ordinary common sense.

Sure, IF the home islands were invaded, even women and avid youngsters WOULD defend themselves ... but, this strange notion that MANY Japanese would volunteer to swim out into the seething Sea with a Samurai sword clenched between their teeth is simply an exaggeration.

In the first place, there just weren't that many Samurai swords (... or fully functioning kamikaze planes) available.

Then, I think you would have realized a very basic and simple truth... common to ALL peoples.

Why die a death for somebody else's lost cause, when you can wait a little while, and live to fight another day, if necessary?

Especially when no one is invading or directly assaulting... YOU, personally.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> ...the Japanese army did have a kind of samurai spirit of no surrender.

This isn't QUITE correct.

SOME of the soldiers, Officers and Politicians mostly (... ah so, grasshopper, as is EVER the case), did assume this unyielding Sepaku stance.

To extrapolate and suggest that a majority of the soldiers also adhered MERELY and ONLY... to a "suicidal Samurai spirit" would be in error.

And, to further suggest that MOST of the civilians would go so far as to sacrifice their homes and family... BECAUSE the warrior encoded Officers might ask or even order them to... belies everyday ordinary common sense.

Sure, IF the home islands were invaded, even women and avid youngsters WOULD defend themselves ... but, this strange notion that MANY Japanese would volunteer to swim out into the seething Sea with a Samurai sword clenched between their teeth is simply an exaggeration.

In the first place, there just weren't that many Samurai swords (... or fully functioning kamikaze planes) available.

Then, I think you would have realized a very basic and simple truth... common to ALL peoples.

Why die a death for somebody else's lost cause, when you can wait a little while, and live to fight another day, if necessary?

Especially when no one is invading or directly assaulting... YOU, personally. </font>