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junk2drive

Carlisle UK

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Aye but the Germans would have never made it through Drumochter Pass and into the heart of the Highlands. they would have taken one look at the weather and midgies, thought (in German of course) "F**k that!" and headed back down south.

BUT... I am intregued. The age old invasion route for the North tended to go up through the east coast e.g. South Berwick. Carlisle was important but only as a venue for hanging miscreants! :D Arguably the Germans forces may have chosen to go up the east coast (has the advantage that this advance route could be supported by sea/possibly even air). Land ground forces at Gullane beach near Edinburgh - then it is a hop skip and a jump to Rosyth naval base, where the British Home fleet sailed out from....

As for forces... the Highlands were/are used as a training venuse by the Army. Hard place to control given the state of the road netwrok at that time (in fact the main road from Inverness onwards up until the late seventies/early eighties was single track.

Like the cut of yer jib J2D!!

Cheers fur noo

George Mc

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Another thought

A successful invasion would have forced the Brits to remove forces from Afrika and the Middle East don't you think?

I don't know how long the trip would take or if they could sail through the Med. Around the horn would take a while.

Good reason to involve the Canadians and Yanks.

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Originally posted by junk2drive:

Another thought

A successful invasion would have forced the Brits to remove forces from Afrika and the Middle East don't you think?

I don't know how long the trip would take or if they could sail through the Med. Around the horn would take a while.

Good reason to involve the Canadians and Yanks.

Assuming that Britain would still have naval superiority, troops, weapons, fuel etc could be shipped over to the North of Scotland where a resistance could be mounted. Given the road netwrok that existed then a mechnaised force attempting to move into the Highlands could be easily checked (basically they would have to move up through narrow glens which would be easily defended). Given the generally poor weather in the Highlands air support for any offensive actions in the Highlands would be patchy at best.

Where I stay was used as a major troop training area so there were units based here (anti-tank/mountain warfare etc).

Cheers fur noo

George

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1940 would have been the first time an invading force found the estuaries of the Esk and the Sark properly drained! In days of old it actually made more sense to cross salt water further west. (Horses can swim.)

The east coast was traditionally the best route to Edinburgh and the populated areas further north. 1940 would have been the first time that Glasgow was an important objective.

Why would the occupation of the Celtic Fringe have been any different from that of Northern Norway or Southern France? The British Army and the Royal Air Force would have been shattered remnants. The Royal Navy would have been depleted in numbers and short on bases.

I agree that rural parts of the British Isles would have been the logical place for guerilla activity to begin, but I think this would have taken a couple of years to materialise.

Would British forces overseas have behaved differently from French or Dutch forces overseas?

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My wife's father's family is from Tillicoultry

His father got senile and used to tell the women to hide their children from the Boers behind those trees.

Robert the Bruce is in the family somewhere.

-----

"Would British forces overseas have behaved differently from French or Dutch forces overseas? "

For the Dutch, it was over before they could do anything. After the French gave in, their ships became Allied targets.

If the Brits and Allies could maintain a command structure, and control the seas, they could have transfered troops from other theatres. Add in the US and Canadians and you would have a force to deal with.

I hope.

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Similar topic at Axis History Forum What Ifs Gibraltar invasion 1941.

Another thought for the "couldn't happen" crowd, scenarios where the Brits drive the Germans back to the beaches. Sort of a reverse Normandy.

The map and idea from "Raid on Tileste" at TSD could be done to represent one of the smaller islands of the UK with an Axis attack.

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If the Brits and Allies could maintain a command structure, and control the seas, they could have transfered troops from other theatres. Add in the US and Canadians and you would have a force to deal with.

I hope. [/QB]

If the Germans had managed to break out of beachheads in the south of England, I think they would have taken London, England, Britain, the British Isles, the Faroes, Iceland, Portugal's Atlantic islands, Gibraltar, and possibly Portugal itself. (The last two would obviously need Franco's help.) Then Hitler would have turned east. The cumulative effect of this lot might have awakened US opinion in the same way that Czechoslovakia awakened the UK.

Does Greenland count as "Western Hemisphere" as far as the Munroe Doctrine is concerned? Presumably Hitler would not have wanted to deliberately provoke the US before Barbarossa. So Bermuda, the Bahamas, the West Indies would have remained "Free British".

There are some French Islands in the St. Lawrence. Were they Free French or Vichy, 1940 - 44? Where did Quebec nationalism stand?

If Britain had fallen in 1940 the dominions would have been in a much stronger position than say the colonial community in French North Africa. However, I still think they would have negotiated a peace with Hitler and latched onto America's coat tails to await the next move.

Sorry, I seem to keep wrecking your "America intervenes in 1940" scenario ideas. Why not have Hitler "step across the line" in Greenland, Bermuda or the West Indies?

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"Sorry, I seem to keep wrecking your "America intervenes in 1940" scenario ideas. Why not have Hitler "step across the line" in Greenland, Bermuda or the West Indies? "

Not at all, I enjoy the debate.

South Afrikan uniforms look like the police in the Bahamas IIRC.

Lets not get started on South American scenarios yet. PCP was looking for someone to make an Amazon jungle Nazi base camp map.

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Take a look at this page The Auxiliary Units or British Resistance Organisation Of World War 2 - 1940-1944

Formed in May 1940 after the fall of France as an underground type unit.

The home guard was in place. They had IIRC Brit, French and Polish troops from the Dunkirk evac. plus whatever US and Canadian volunteers.

You may be correct that the stand would have been made at London and losses there would have decimated the army.

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"Sorry, I seem to keep wrecking your "America intervenes in 1940" scenario ideas"

How about a chance to avenge 1918 and teach those obnoxious, arrogant Yanks a lesson.

Beat them up and send them packing.

The North Americans can come back after things go badly in Russia.

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Ah so weve come full circle and possibly agree that London was the key. I dont go in for ludicrous stands in the Highlands, yes i know the terrain is difficult but no more difficult than Norway and Jerry had some good Mountain troops. And living in the highlands Mself I know what the are like. Its just practicality, the enemy had to attack in the South and thats where all of our forces had to be. Once the invasion started the whole might of the Royal navy would have been thrown at the invaders, thats every last ship. I just dont personally think the what if works unless Dunkirk didnt take place. However if there was no Dunkirk I dont think the Germans would have needed to invade I think Churchill would have gone and the Brits would have made peace with Germany. End of conflict, no US involvement etc etc etc......

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Originally posted by GSX:

I dont go in for ludicrous stands in the Highlands, yes i know the terrain is difficult but no more difficult than Norway and Jerry had some good Mountain troops. And living in the highlands Mself I know what the are like.

I agree. The Highlands have never figured strongly in any British governments thinking, so it would unlikely if the Nazi germany would have cared ;) Let's face it the Hanovarians very quickly pacified the Highlands at a time when the road links were far poorer, and they had no air support :D

Do you mind if I ask whereabouts in the Highlands you stay? I'm near Aviemore - a grand place!!

Cheers fur noo

George

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Hi George, Im a bit further North than you, In Elgin, Morayshire actually not Highland but close enough to get there.

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Forgot to mention, interestingly Im called George too, ever noticed how many Scots appear to have been called after Hanovarian Kings?

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Have you done London and the Home Counties? I'd be happy do do you a map of any of these places from my photographic-type memory of Blighty. Drop me a line if you're interested.

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Originally posted by GSX:

Forgot to mention, interestingly Im called George too, ever noticed how many Scots appear to have been called after Hanovarian Kings?

Hi GSX

My apologies for the delay in responding I've been away in Norway for week. Both my Dad and Grandad are called George - must be the Campbell/hanovarian influence! My only claim to any Jacobitism is my Granny on my Mum's side was a Stewart. Not related to Charlie though!

Just drove up though Drumochter Pass this evening. Any advancing German forces taking one look at the weather would have just turned right back I'm sure! tongue.gif Still the idea of playing a CMBB game attempting to hold back advancing German panzers sounds appealing J2D? Hey J2D a Norwegian/Scottish wife eh? A winning combination mate :D

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