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junk2drive

Carlisle UK

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Yes I know how to Google lol

Seems to be a tax on photos on websites in the UK. All I get are tiny pics.

I found a site with aerial photos.

I need to know if it snows in the winter, things like that.

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I wouldn't say I know Carlisle, but I did get drunk and laid there as a young soldier (long story, but The Mitre will always have a pleasant slot in my memory) and have been back a few times since.

If you want to look at some photos of the terrain nearby, look on the 'net for the "Lake District". There are loads of them out there and they will give you a good idea of the terrain any invader would have to fight through to get to Carlisle.

Cleary I don't know the premise of your proposed scenario but I find it difficult to image the circumstances in which the invaders would be fighting that far north, and even fewer in which, given the nature of the terrain, the defenders would not have a massive advantage.

Cheers

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Another thought occurs.

If you want to think about the type of English troops that might be defending Carlisle in 1940, read George McDonald FRASER's "Quartered Safe Out Here". That tells of the Border Regiment fighting in Burma in 1945, but just imagine those characters fighting on and for their home turf.

Tinkerty-tonk

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Premise: Sealion was a success. Dunkirk survivors and home guard have retreated fighting as they go. Logistically the Germans could not take the whole island in weeks as with France. Fall winter weather, and resistance fighting has held the line of advance and occupation to a line from Carlisle to Newcastle upon Tyne.

As the Barbarians harassed the Romans, so the remnants of the CW army, Canadians and Free French, harass the Germans.

Why did the Germans stop there (Carlisle) you ask?

Ocean and marshes to the west, rough terrain to the east. The river Eden. Supply lines.

I would like to use Ed's new winter buildings and some WW grau armour in light snow vs the USA M3 in early 1941.

More?

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Andreas and Desert Fox have their Sealion ending in August when the British Government surrenders. Details at Desert Fox' website.

I don't think the British would give up, but retreat to the north.

I suggested to Andreas to continue the saga to Hadrian's Wall. Then have a Bravehart style charge down the hill battle or whatever. That way you can mix up 1941-43 units in all the seasons and terrain.

I have given up on the snow idea, no winter mods for the units I want to use.

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You could add another what if; invasion of Northern Ireland by the Irish as the Irish take the weakness of the UK (and incouraged by a WWII version of the Zimmerman telegraph from Germany) to regain their lost lands.

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Another part of Britain which would of been difficult for the Germans to take is Wales. True, the coastal area's could of been taken but as they moved inland into the hills and mountains their casualties would of been high due to the terrain which is easy to defend. The port of Liverpool would of easily suppied the defenders ( ships coming from the US ). Another point, it would of been difficult for the German airforce to patrol. Think of them flying down the valleys, encountering A\A fire coming from the the mountains on both sides of the valleys.

Not good tank terrain either. They would have been forced to use infantry on foot in many area's.

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Thanks for the posts guys.

I've been out of town playing Santa to my grandson.

Basically I have all this neat Sealion mod stuff and I am trying to use it.

I would like to inspire good scenario designers to come up with some post invasion scenarios in areas other than the south coast of England.

Being what if, You can use whatever you want. Within reason, to be believable.

BT you do good work, how about something?

CSO_Talorgan

I was trying to find areas near Carlisle that contain bits of Hadrian's wall and could be a WWII vintage battle area.

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This source WWII Timeline gives year by year, month by month, by theatres, war at sea, everything that was going on in WWII.

I use it to find what "wasn't" happening and to find time periods that do not conflict with other historical events.

My best guess of Sealion timeframe would be sometime after Dunkirk, and before the war with the Soviets.

Assuming a German success, the battles travel across the isle, slowed or halted by shipping, weather, terrain, airpower, ground resistance levels.

The British Navy and Air Force could be relocated and still viable, ground units may have been left behind. (Captured units are in CMAK.) Factories in the north could still be producing goods.

Scenarios don't have to be in late 40 or early 41 defense, summer 41 through summer 42 could be counter attacks to free the occupied territory.

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Hi, You might know about these but here they are if you don't.

http://www.multimap.com/

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/

http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/getamap/

Cheers

P.s. A feature of Google is to do a search for images. Loads of images for the wall.

http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=hadrian's%20wall&hl=en&lr=&cr=countryUK%7CcountryGB&sa=N&tab=wi

This one quite good...

Removed as link too long... Sorry.

H

[ December 31, 2004, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Holien ]

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I was trying to find areas near Carlisle that contain bits of Hadrian's wall and could be a WWII vintage battle area.
There used to be a wargame club in Carlisle, but I don't know if there still is. There must be someone in a town of that size who plays. Whether they post here or not is another matter though.

What I've seen of the wall would equate in height to CMAK's stone wall. It's several times thicker though.

Your Sealion follow-through situation is in many ways an invitation for British Isles CM players to draw a map of their own home town and then defend it! The square street plan constriction of the maps makes this difficult though.

As for what-if accounts of Sealion, the best I read was Kenneth Macksey's. I think it was called "Invasion" or "Invasion 1940". It's starting point was Admiral Raeder being ordered to plan for Sealion a month earlier than happened in history. As a result the invasion could begin shortly after Dunkirk and was essentially complete before the bad weather of autumn would have made it impossible.

You know that by the spring of 1941 the British were much better organised? After the post-Dunkirk window, I don't think any Sealion type operation would have stood a chance without nuclear weapons or possibly nerve gas. Consider the build up in North Africa and the Far East, not to mention the material aid to the Soviets, in the years after 1940.

Finally, there was an interesting what-if on television recently. Guderian was allowed to go all the way to Dunkirk. The BEF were surrounded. They tried to break out towards Calais, but were massacred in the process. Churchill was ousted from office and peace negotiated. I guess you could take this situation and give it a military ending i.e. Churchill stays in office, the fight goes on, Sealion makes it ashore ...

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Holien, thanks for the links. I never thought about the google image button.

CSO_Talorgan

"Your Sealion follow-through situation is in many ways an invitation for British Isles CM players to draw a map of their own home town and then defend it! The square street plan constriction of the maps makes this difficult though."

That is what I had in mind. Andreas' project is based on Macksey's timeline. Had the Germans succeeded in taking London by August, then 1941 would have been different.

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Well in theory the carlisle scenario would be fun. In real life, not a chance, if the germans had launched Sea lion and suceeded (slim chance there) the fall of London would have meant the fall of the Uk. There would not have been much if any Scots, Welsh or other units left further north to seriously contest a battle. As for the ludicrous notion of Southern ireland attacking in the North, well it goes without saying that reclaiming lost lands is just foolish. The population of norther ireland would have fought to the last as the vast majority would have considered themselves british then as now.

In truth, the Royal navy would have had to intervene with all its strength (and that was considerable)and the germans could only counter with aircraft. Also RAF Bomber command would have used every plane available to attack the beaches and the UK Government was quite prepared to use gas against any invader.

To sum up, if sealion was successful the UK would have surrendered if London was taken, but Sealion would not in any way have been a success, the germans in 1940 were not the allies of 1944 when it came to amphibious assualt.

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I do enjoy reading peoples opinions on the subject.

My reason for doing this is the other people who started a project. To squeeze another drop of gameplay from the basic game.

Some people will think this is stupid and never could have happened.

I go about this assuming that things worked out on the side of the Germans for whatever reason.

Once past that, the what ifs can expand in any direction. I like to think the fall of London would not have been the end.

Maybe because I'm a Yank and we don't care about Capitals. We moved ours around.

Make up a plausible storyline, a map and some forces. Have fun.

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