What Ifs? of SC

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

[bshoah.com that might also have links.

Hmm doesn't seem to exist.

[JerseyJohn]

Hueristic

Sorry for the mislead. My wife bought me a depressing two CD-Rom set of interviews by Holocaust Survivors (probably after I told her I'd known people who lived through it). It links into a site and I thought it was Shoah. Next time I'm intoxicated enough to view this thing I'll do a print out of sites they list and will post it. I don't mean to make light of the subject matter, but after you listen to a few of these accounts you start wishing you were part of a different species.

Thanks for posting the mistake, will correct it.

[ January 14, 2003, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by Genghis:

Well if no one has done it yet..I'll create a 1939 mod with germany and Russia allied versus France, UK, and US.

Not sure if Italy will be allied to UK or Germany still. Italy might have easily gone Communist too back in the 1920's.

I'll give the US much more MPP's to work with to help offset the huge Russian advantage.

Can I change a neutral county's chances of joining either side? Can this be done in the editor?

This should be a fun game to play.

JerseyJohn -

Agreed..if Hitler wasn't around..another crackpot probably would have emerged in all the post WWI chaos in Germany. one thing was for sure though..I doubt the Hohenzollerns (aka the Kaiser) would have ever come back.

Don't think the editor will allow these changes but aye if it does count me in

[JerseyJohn]

Genghis & Hueristic

The only way I can figure is to have the USSR surrendered to Axis and fill in your own pieces from there. Same with Italy but in reverse; it would have to be surrendered to Allies and you fill in new pieces.

I don't know what the complications would be of doing it that way.

[ January 14, 2003, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Hueristic

Sorry for the mislead. My wife bought me a depressing two CD-Rom set of interviews by Holocaust Survivors (probably after I told her I'd known people who lived through it). It links into a site and I thought it was Shoah. Next time I'm intoxicated enough to view this thing I'll do a print out of sites they list and will post it. I don't mean to make light of the subject matter, but after you listen to a few of these accounts you start wishing you were part of a different species.

Thanks for posting the mistake, will correct it.

Yeah that's another reason i don't delve too deeply into the "Politics" of the time The barbarism appalls me. I love a strategic "GAME" but would never move a piece if Actual innocent lives were the cost.

[JerseyJohn]

Well said and agreed.

Hueristic

In the mid-20s Wilhelm's son returned to Germany, joined the Nazis and attempted to merge them with a revived monarchist agenda. Ironically his father, living in Holland, wouldn't back the movement and it went nowhere. The Crown Prince left Germany forever in 1934. The exiled Kaiser originally admired the Nazis, then found himself disgusted by their racist policies. In 1938 after reading about Crystal Night, he said, "For the first time in my life I am ashamed to be a German." Hitler didn't stop in for a visit while going thrugh Holland in 1940. The Kaiser died in '41 and the Crown Prince in '51, neither of them returned to Germany after 1934.

Good Call Mr. H --

[ January 14, 2003, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

Supposedly my Great Great Uncle's were body Guard's to the Kaiser Wilhelm himself. I don't know much about that but my Mother always was a reputable source.

I think that Germany was no different than many other European Powers at the time of WW1. Though the Chaos after the War, drew up lines that didn't exist. Yugoslavia is still divided to this day. Russia finally has given independence to all it's ethnic states. Germany will never recover from what she did. She will be tarnished for eternity...

Sadly, she isn't the one to blame. She had many collaborators. Hitler's Rise and ressurgenc of Germany Military was never put in check by Western Powers. It was ultimately the West's Job to keep Germany at peace. The Russians were also helpful in Poland! So the West and East payed the price for their crimes... The war is Karmic, IMHO. The Ethnic hatred goes back centuries. It has been there and will be there many years to come and is a part of a bigger picture. That some 1 balled, short half Austrian Mutt came to Power and claimed this and that is of little consequence. He didn't act alone...as stated he had plenty of other's that pushed and truely were the foundation of a Country of Hatred...

I truely love the Simulator, I love the aspect of the Battle. If I were to have run Germany in the 30s I would have never allowed anyone to be rascist. I would have used all my wits and all my Manpower to conquor the World bit by bit. The Jews would have been treated like Brothers! So would have the Americans until they nolonger suited my Expansionist desires

[Liam]

I.E.

5-way Multiplayer WOOHOO! that would rule!

Maybe we can bid for france

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

Imperial Germany was the least anti-semitic major power in Europe. One of the reasons many German Jews refused to leave the country was the large percentage of intermarriage (which even the nazis saw as a problem in their draconian calculations, not to mention the fact that many naval and some Luftwaffe officers [including Fieldmarshal Erhardt Milch] were half-Jewish by the Nazi way of figuring things and could not be replaced, so they were treated as "full" German.

left click fo photo of Luftwaffe Marshal Erhard Milch; half Jewish, a former business associate of Goering, the Reichsmarshal defended his decision to support his friend with "In Germany it is I who say who is and who isn't Jewish!"

There were so many combat decorated German Jewish veterans of WW I that it seemed inconceivable their heroics would be forgotten. Many who did take tha nazi racism seriously believed they would specifically be spared due to a war record. It was not uncommon in the 30s for middle-aged WW I Jewish war veterans to go out into the street in full uniform with medals and be beaten by thugs who said they demeaned the uniform by wearing it.

As for the German people being personally responsible, I don't see it. As the conquests spread the psychotics of other countries came out from under their rocks and gleefully joined in. Often the SS had little more to do than stand by and not interfere. There's no doubt in my mind that if tomorrow the United States were run by such a lunatic government, and nobody can know for sure who's going to get into power, there would be no shortage of psychotics to join in and help kill anyone who was made fair game. It's happened repeatedly thruout history in numerous countries and it misses the point to issue condemnations.

If the Nazis had been purely militaristic and non-racial with a stated program of unifying Europe, without any of the genocidal insanity, I doubt they'd have failed. The difference between the Nazis and the Romans is ancient Rome would have told each conquered territory it's people were now part of the Reich, subjects and citizens instead of slaves. True, the Romans were big on slavery, but that was 2,000 years ago when it was the norm. The fact Hitler and his bunch revived it in the age of industry, and with such absurd enthusiasm, shows how shallow and lacking, even self-defeating, their concept was from the start.

Apparently the old monarchists saw this almost immediately. The Kaiser's best bet would have been to endorse his son's nazi fling, but he saw the extent of it's racism and disregard for true legalism and was repulsed by it. I give him credit for that much, even if many of his decisions while in power were not the wisest.

left click for photo of Kaiser Wilhelm II convering with Fieldmarshal Hinenburg and Colonelgeneral Ludendorff during WW I; notice how the crippled arm that alledgedly shaped his personality is cleverly concealed from view.

[ January 15, 2003, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by Liam:

So would have the Americans until they nolonger suited my Expansionist desires

LMAO

[Liam]

Come to think about it, after defeating Russia and taking their bread basket, and turning West with the Russian Front reinforcements, shouldn't the War been in the bag for the Germans? WW1 that is... At least not counting the entry of United States and the failure of Germany's Axis partners Turkey/Austria Hungary to do much of anything but beg for their lives. They were pretty cruel on the German's. Taking away their Army, stripping them of a Navy. Forcing them to pay back a hell of a lot money. Occuppying the RhineLand and creating new nations over the Empire you'd spent centuries conquoring.

I'd be pretty ticked off, if I was German. Though if you look at it WW1 bore WW2... Live by the Sword, die by it. You killed off one generation and the next hopped right back in to fight it out. Finally I think the Europeans are tired of constant War after two thousand years. Romans are similar to Nazis, in the regard they both could've ruled Europe. They shared some of the same symbology. They loved perfect mass spectacles of marching men. That indoctrination into something to belong to.

The Romans did bring a lot to Early European Society. They were fierce, they were cruel and they were of their time. Though of course, the people they oppressed eventually learned their weakness and sacked them. Light horsemen replaced infantrymen...and thus the MiddleAges begun, a time of great chaos and more death,disease & murder. Chaos breeds Order

Even out of WW2 many things have come... Though you cannot destroy everyone or everything and hope to gain much. In the end that's the end of you.

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

I think you have a very wrong view of Ancient Rome. They were cruel, of course, but those were extremely cruel times. The Romans sought to control civilizations they thought could either threaten or rival their own. If a neighbor, such as Ptolemy Egypt or Middle Eastern Persia (second incarntion as Parthia) was either too difficult to conquer or could be worked with harmoniously, they did so.

Eventually, every region they conquered became Romanized. Britain, during the reign of Claudius fought them so hard that at one point a Roman General complained they were subdueing a barren wasteland. A century later they were thoroughly Roman and two centuries later they petitioned Rome to not withdraw her legions and leave them defenseless! If you think the Romans were brutal try Alaric or Attila the Hun!

The Romans ran their course, controled things for five or six centuries, then were edged out by a number of factors, none of which involved their brutality. The problem we have today is the only view we're shown of Ancient Rome is the gladatorial games and her decadence. The real history is much different.

One thing about the Romans that doesn't get much play is the fact anyone within their borders could become a citizen. Roman citizens weren't only Italians but also Syrians, Greeks, Britons, Gauls, Spaniards, Germans -- the whole range.

Nazi doctrine was much different. You were either in or you were out and it was decided before you were even born. I suspect in time that would have changed. In the administration of Poland, for example, divided into three districts, one governor adheared to the party line with near maniacal obsession. His neighbor had all the local population apply for German citizenship; any Pole who chose to become a German was allowed to do so. He still usurped his authority and stole (which he was imprisoned for) but at least he didn't go stomping around hanging innocents as subhumans. I'm sure he was the next generation of nazi if the system survived the war.

No civilization ever lasted long on brutality and injustice; it doesn't work, in the long run oppressive systems collapse from their own instability.

Bringing us back to the Romans who built great cities and fell after centuries of dominance. The nomadic leaders like Atilla who rampaged through the ruins, raping and pillaging -- how long did they last and what did they leave behind?

[Genghis]

Ok well just tried playing 2 different Communist vs Capitalist scenarios.

Aye USSR has to be made a surrendered county to the Axis if it's to be Allied with Germany.

Also Poland has to be surrendered to Germany. Otherwise you get the message "Russia occupies eastern Poland" appears even though Russia is conquered, it screws up the German occupied cities in Russia by reducing all them by 1 MPP each.

Right now it's a boring stalemate along the Franco/German border so trying to figure out a way to break the deadlock. I might make Turkey and Greece Allied to begin with.

I did have fun renaming all the German units though (i.e. Karl Marx Tank Group, Battleship Frederich Engels etc)

If anyone knows any famous german Communist names let me know so I can put them on the units

JerseyJohn - I heard that the kaiser's Son served in the Army til Hitler forbade any members of the former kaiser's family from serving in the military. Not sure if he wanted to have any big name monarchists to die in the war.

[ January 15, 2003, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[Liam]

Perhaps the Romans brought a more modern civilization based off the Greeks to the Barbarian class civilizations of the World. They were developing at a slower right. As in South America when the Spanish discovered this stone age culture it was a cinch to conquor them and turn them into a productive colonial empire. It wasn't right nor was it better for the populace it was the rule of might. As in the Romans case. They had the Legionaire, they were the most powerful soldier of their time and they took the world by force. Though Egypt, Persia and Carthage were of similar development of the time they just didn't manage to conquor the World. They were harsh times, true... You can't deny that everyone was harsh... Though to become a citizen maybe one thing I do not know that there were many non-Roman leaders in Rome, perhaps later...not in early Roman expansion.

They were Strong, they were one of the Most powerful Empires to ever have been known. Though the Romans goal was to build an Empire, like the World has never known. To be the most powerful Nation in the World and to Rule it. The Mediterrean Sea would be a Roman Lake. I'm wrong to say that Germany was like them, United States resembles them a great deal. In our Architecture in our capitol and our goverment comes from Greeks. Their Auxiliary troops were never as good as Roman Legions. Truely, in the End. Though Briton asked for them to stay the rest of Europe could care less.

[JerseyJohn]

Genghis

I believe you're right.

In the First World War the Crown Prince commanded and Army -- surprisingly enough referred to as Army Crown Prince, and later an army group, unpredictably labelled Army Group Crown Prince.

He would have given legitamacy to the Nazis in the mid-and late twenties but after 1933 he'd have been a threat to their supremacy. Nearly all the early Reich Generals were Junker class vons and the Fuhrer wouldn'g have needed a potential Emperor competing with him.

It probably wasn't a random act that he exited Germany a year after the Nazis came to power.

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

[Ancient Rome] -- "United States resembles them a great deal."

Now you have it. But it has little to do with the archetecture. The main difference between the Roman Republic and the modern U. S. in terms of development is Rome never had a written Constitution. If they had, if their legal system had been based more on written law instead of senatorial decree they might have avoided the frequent civil wars that fatally weakened them from within.

Britain might not have wanted them to leave but the rest of Europe could have cared less --

Really? You mean the rest of Europe wanted to be pillaged and burned, have their cities burned to the ground, their women raped and everyone in sight carted off into slavery? Sure, sounds like fun! What are your sources? At the time Rome was falling it encompassed most of Britain (what they didn't have the didn't want), all of France , all of Belgium , all of Spain , all of Portugal , all of Morocco , the northern Mediteranean coast (100 miles deep) of , Algeria all of Tunesia [former Carthage] , the northern Mediteranean coast again 100 miles deep of Lybia , All of Egypt , all of Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Turkey (Asia Minor), Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Yugoslavia, Romania (which got it's name because it's where many of their old soldiers retired to), most of Central Europe, Switzerland and Italy !! They seem to have encompased a lot of places to arouse such massive indifference; and that incredible apathy lasted for six centuries.

Also, they didn't set out to conquer the world. Believe it or not they conquered most of it our of fear! Having been ruled early in their history (approximately 550 B.C.) by the southern French Etruscans, and soon after by a tribe of wandering Celts, they became obsessed with the idea of maintaining their own sovereignty. Terrified of being conquered they constantly expanded their borders.

By the time of Julius Ceasar (they were still a republic) kingdoms in other parts of the Mediteranean actually sought Roman stability and called them in as arbitors and protectors.

Much of the early conquests were either to secure trade agreements, honor alliances, or to defend their own independance. They conquered Greece because Macadonian Kings such as Pyhrus the Great were trying to conquer them -- at the time Sicily and southern Italy were Greek colonies. The following century Carthage was conquered after three wars spanning nearly 100 years. It was clearly a case of one having to conquer the other as they couldn't coexist.

They weren't a Greek imitation, they adapted everything from everybody and even by today's standards they governed a pretty impressive chunk of real estate. It was the only time in all of history that the entire Mediteranean was ruled by a single nation, and they did it for over five hundred years -- incredible continuity(what did the United States, Britain, and Russia look like five centuries ago?).

Liam -- why are you so bent on proving the Roman Empire was just Lenny's Pizza Parlour? Entire large modern nations were contained within their borders and there was plenty of room left over for smallfries like Tunesia and Morocco! :confused: They didn't rule, they governed. The subject people were very happy being Romans and were not indifferent to the Empire. As I said, the alternative was barbarian servitude.

The Spanish Empire

Interesting parellel to Rome. In a sense it was a continuance through Christianity as practiced by over a thousand years of Popes.

The European Colonial Empires, Spain, Portugal, England, France and Holland began the idea that they were settling land inhabited by stone age savages. We know today that this wasn't usually true. What the Europeans had in abundance was better weaponry, better methods of warfare and the screwy belief that by Devine Right they were entitled to take whatever they wanted because God had told them it should be that way. There one basic law was Might is Right.

It's unfortunate they chose to obliterate so many civilizations in their insatiable quest for power and wealth.

Three thousand years of more or less constant slaughter had made the Europeans great warriors. It's unfortunate it didn't also make them great human beings.

In the Americas their greatest weapon, of course, was disease. The survivors of innumerable plagues spread back and forth between Europe, Asia and Africa were, as a group, immune to practically everything. The natives of North and South America had never been exposed to any of it and died by the millions; historians are only now beginning to realize the extent of native American mortality from European diseases. If your goal is to clear an area and fill it with your own subjects you couldn't ask for a more effective instrument.

In the long term I think all the Colonial Empires did pretty well in the respect that modern nations emerged from them. Whether they would have without colonialization is a moot point for most of them as they were never given the chance. It would be interesting to see how the Aztecs and Incas and Cental African Kingdoms would have progressed if they'd been trading partners with the Europeans instead of conquered subjects with largely obliterated cultures.

But getting back to the original topic, if Julius Ceasar, Cleopatra, Poccahantus, Columbus, Hitler and Churchill were all having dinner together and . . ..

[ January 15, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[SeaWolf_48]

Jersey John, man I love the stuff you write, you really love history (as I do).

I don't know if we have enough space on the net so solve what Germany did wrong, or why the Roman Empire was so successful, but you must not leave out the Effect of Christianity on both of these Empires (man am I going too get flack for this).

Germany was seduced by the philosophy of Moderism, Man can do everything thru industry, science and psycology. They left the ground work of Luther and Calvinism, and bought the lie of Evolution. Evolution if you take it to it's conclusion, Man becomes God, therefore you don't need God. Hilter was indoctrinated by these teaching under some Austrian Quack ( I have his name in one of my book on Hitler somewhere), and started preaching about Aryanism (which is a myth).

Germany having abandoned their Judeo-Christian teaching bought the lie, and whammo, Uberman!

I think you can attribute the cruelty and barbaric treatment Germany did to it's neighbors and own people because of these teachings!

Rome is another story about Christianity, see the movie "Ben-Hur".

[Liam]

Ok Ok, you had me! In lots of places! D.C. is like Rome in appearance. We have gladiatorial games! Football. Huge monuments to our ancestors like the Lincoln Memorial. A country founded on the backs of barbarian tribes & initially slavery. The Greeks built most the wonder's of the world and are by far the the architects of ancient times. Though we borrow from them all... Though I don't see where you see all these HAPPY Roman citizens... Some were happy to be Dominated and have their culture replaced. Obviously the Jews weren't. Nor were the developing Christian Cults. The Romans murdered those who didn't agree with them and raped and burnt them to the ground<so there was no arguments>i.e. the Carthiginians. They had to tolerate a certian amount of people and cults. If you go back all the Ghauls, Celts, Greeks, Lombards, Germans, Greeks, etc... Fought like hell, and were defeated! They were fighting for their independence and they were forced into submission.. Whether the Empire saw it for their security or not. They were fairly stable countries in their own Right. The Empire was wealthy with it's rich grain and high quality Goverment. It's incredible military organization<which gave the Romans> all their fame and victories. You have to thank their patience as well.<Hannibal nearly ended them and not the only one> The Ancient times were Rule or be Ruled, true...

Though then you had to do it with an iron fist.

I won't even go into S.America. Other than to say Go where Money's at! Burn, pillage and rape.

Spain #1 until Britian. Then USA then who knows... I don't think that we'll have a competitor until Russia get's her **** together or the EU does. Perhaps a Far East Economic Empire, that's how they like to do it these days. Conquor with CD players, spread your culture with the Internet and Bay Watch...

[SeaWolf_48]

The next dominate world player will be China, possibly joined up with Japan! China's GNP is second only to the US. China is very aggressive and has big plans for the future (watch out world), and I think that the US is slipping now, and going to slip behind Europe and Asia because of the corruption from within. The moral thing, bad Judges, porno, moral degradation, humanism, bad Polititions, bad lawyers, bad CEO's leading the Corprate Industry down the toilet. I love this country, but anyone can see the hand writting on the wall.

[Wachtmeister]

Sea Wolf 48:

If enough of the moral, upstanding, tax paying, law abiding citizens of the USA "see the handwriting on the wall", maybe we should take some action to scrub it off. We have gotten fat, lazy and complacent, all too similiar to the Romans. If we fail learn from history we may well be condenmed to repeat it.

[Desert Dave]

The hand-writing on the wall is weakly sputtering neon, not a child-prophet's crayon creation, and if you sidle up close... it says:

Buy this neo-widget!

No matter it is overpriced, overhyped, under-engineered and without the remotest value to the average human. After all, making more garbage is our business, our only business!

Yeah, the newest new-age will be akin to the movie Blade Runner where the millions teem & moil down in them mean-streets, and the Corp-Cops send out squads of hit-robots, who will execute immediate judgement upon all the bawling and dispossessed.

Or, if out in the desert where I am, then it might be more like Mad Max and it will be every grubbing Oil-cowboy for themselves... still got my black & gold '57 Ford Fairlane convertible... maybe I should be proactive and convert it to wind power?... or,

Just enough people will sicken and then quicken and take back the lost America from all the glib and soul-less cost accountants.

... but first, more than half the brainwashed population has to vote, otherwise we abandon little-d democracy to the self-annointed tyrants and the glad-handers and the silken-fingered influence peddlers O yea, indeed and verily... :eek:

[ January 15, 2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

We have reached a point where our differing views are in a proximity. The reason we seem to be on oppostite sides of the same opinion is I think you're viewing it from the expanding Roman civilization, stretching five centuries from 250 B.C. to 250 A.D.. It's true, during that time a lot of it was brutal conquest. Each civilization built upon what came before it. The Romans built on the Greeks, the Greeks built on the Persians, who built on the Assyrians, Hittites, Meeds and Egyptians, etc..

The point I was getting at is the Romans weren't Greek clones, they had their own distinct civilization and built upon it. By 250 A.D. the time of rebellious subjects were over. Yes, they continued persecuting groups like the Christians and Jews because their mutual single God doctrine challenged the Emperor's Devine status. The issue would have been nonsensical among Augustus and his first few successors and was only taken serious from the reign of Nero. Again, it seems a big point today, but to the average Roman, whether he was a Britain, Gaul or African, the whole thing meant next to nothing.

As in the SC game, pillage was a factor. Some of the Emperors augmented their economies by confiscating the possessions of traitors. By declaring all the Jews to be traitors, the Emperor Titus suddenly became very wealthy. This is a very near parrellel to Nazi Germany, except Titus wanted the wealth of the Jewish Temples; his goal wasn't to exterminate the Jews themselves. Those like Josephus who chose to become Romanized lived in peace and prosperity; they adapted the dual role of giving lip service to the Emperor's Divinity and ignoring it in every other respect. And they were in the vast majority.

Of the Roman persecutions, here are some of the reactions withing the Empire itself: at the height of the Jewish Wars, slave traders thruout the Mediteranean complained to the Emperor that he'd flooded their markets with Jewish captives and the price had dropped through the floor -- provide us with fewer slaves or we'll starve!

During the Christian persecution the zealots believed that to be martyred was to receive an immediate ticket to Paradise. Contrary to modern belief the Romans never went tracking them down (the only searched for the leaders), the average Christian sought out Roman magistrates with lines like "I don't believe in the Emperor you'd better kill me." At one point the Governor of Asia Minor made the following immortal statement -- "Oh miserable wretches, are there not enough cliffs for you to leap from, is there not enough rope for you to hang yourselves with, why must all your blood stain my hands?" It's possible the stained blood reference may have been adapted to Pontius Pilot, who almost certainly felt no direct guilt over the death of Jesus -- it was the Jews, not the Romans, who condemned him as a blasphemer!

While nobody ran through the streets gleefully singing about how happy they were to be citizens of Rome, they didn't walk around muttering they'd prefer to be something else. By the fourth century A. D. there was Rome, it's only rival Parthia, or there was the Barbarian wilderness. The empire was so imbedded that the permanent legion outposts and border roads can be seen clearly by space satallite today, clearly outlining what had once been the Empire in Europe.

When they stopped expanding they meant it. The soldier Emperor Trajan in 215 A. D. decided to conquer the by then peaceful neighbor Parthia. He quickly conquerred what today would be Iraq, western Iran, Quewait and Armenia. He was the only emperor to sail on both the Persian Gulf and the Caspian Sea. Meanwhile his right hand man longed for the comforts of civilization. Unlike Trajan he saw no merit in Romanizing such a vast new area and thought it foolish. To make his point he had his good friend Trajan poinsoned over dinner, was proclaimed the new new Emperor, and immediately withdrew to the previous boundaries, utterly abandoning the ancient equivalent of three modern nations. Confused but thankful, the Parthians moved into their old palace and never did quite understand what the temporary disposession was about.

In other corners, it was obvious that the Saharra bordered on much more desert so that was a natural boundary. In the British Isles they concluded Ireland (which they saw little economic value in and which they believed to be largely uninhabited) was the first of many islands which were economically unexploitable. In Scotland the Picts were also thought to be the fringe of a vast Barbarian civilization and Hadrian's Wall was built not so much to stave off invasion as to occupy the garrison in it's construction (having murdered his way to power Hadrian feared ambitious generals) and also to regulate trade in Northern Briton.

After the four legion disaster of Varus during the reign of Augustus, it was decided that Germany was primarily dense forest followed by more dense forest going off into infinity. A frontier was drawn following the major rivers from the Rhine and Meuse in the west to the Danube and others in the east.

Guarding this entire Empire was a standing force of roughly twenty legions, each of which contained 5,000 regulars and as many as 5,000 auxilleries. We're talking about a maximum army of 200,000 men to defend about ten modern countries! Even at that time the area encompassed many millions of inhabitants, so it's obvious the Roman Empire was built on neither fear nor intimidation. It was one of the most stable governments in history and lasted so long because it served everyone equally well and they were all content, if not exstatic, about being Romans.

[JerseyJohn]

SeaWolf_48

Thanks for the good word and your love of history is obvious from all your posts and greatly enjoyed by this fellow travellor.

I'm glad you broached the Christian subject. As you say it's too extensive for us to even begin discussing but I pretty much agree with your take on it. To me they represent the Crusades and Inquisition. Christ preached love and the Popes, together with their multinational royal accomplices, turned it into submission, fear and brutality. One of histories great usurping movements and I'm sure we'll both be in for more flak than we want if we go into it any deeper, but I'm still glad you mentioned it.

[JerseyJohn]

Wachtmeister

Exactly my opinion. America is where Ancient Rome was just before the Ceasars; still a republic but really relying on an excessively empowered central governement to run things. We're ripe for an oligarchy, if it hasn't happened already. Unlike Ancient Rome it probably won't be a conquering general but a manipulating behind the scenes power broker. Hadrian instead of Trajan. If I stop posting suddenly it means the FBI or CIA read this and -- hey fellas, wait, no -- I take it all back! :eek:

[ January 15, 2003, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Immer

Yes my friend, you just succeded in scaring the hell out of me because your entry is a bull's eye.

Interesting how Blade Runner was so poorly received initially, thumbs down by all the big critics, then gradually climbed and became a classic, especially after it's release in widescreen. I watch it once a year, along with the original Rollerball and the two movies are looming as ever more reliable views of America and the world.

Liam --

Good point about America's equivalent of gladitorial combats and the mentality behind it. Have you noticed the sudden popularity of machine fighting machine, and it's exactly the same mood as was portrayed in the movie A. I..