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What Ifs? of SC


Liam

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Well said gentlemen. It would be interesting to see some variants on pre-war Germany that would put different Foreign Policy settings into effect.

For example: In exchange for concessions in Poland and colonies in Africa (did not know about the African deal), Germany signs non-aggression pact with Britain and France. becomes enamoured with Balkan politics and risks war with Soviets and ITALY. Any suggestions along that line guys?

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All the Nazis running to South America? The Irony, for those half bloods there. I'm not making a slur, they're half Native American Indians and Half Spanish/Portaguese...Of course the harsh leaders/landowners are more closely related to the colonial Invaders.

It is shocking that a man so little as Hitler achieved so much. He definitely had a complex. I once watched a show with I believe Alec Guiness playing Hitler looking back on his life. It was very intrigueing... The man was diluted by his time. He was a breed of the vileness of early ethnic hatred in Europe. He hated Catholics about as much as Jews, and this fellow polluted the population with his ideals and the ideals of the hateful National Socialists of the Time in Germany

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Liam

Agreed. I believe Hitler went over the edge while fighting in the First World War, as did hundreds of thousands of others. Consider this, he actually fought in the front lines of the Western Front from start to finish and survived -- what were the odds against anyone doing that?

I think the movie you're thinking of is called "Last Days of Hitler" based on a book of the same name written shortly after the war by a British author -- it may have been Trevor-Roper.

Jim The joke is Italy was originally the main counter weight to nazi Germany. Mussolini was at the height of his power in the mid-30s and saw himself as the Protector of Aurstria. He didn't take to Hitler at first, became friendlier and by a quirk of fate fell in with him when the League of Nations condemned his 1936 invasion of Ethiopia. He really wanted ties with England and France but they handled the situation in their typical way and practically created the Axis!

Hitler, in later years, felt Mussolini made it possible for him to absorb Austria and get away with the Sudatenland and remained grateful to him right up to the end. Hitler never put down Il Duce, it was always the Italians, especially the nobility, that he had harsh words for.

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Liam and JerseyJohn

One of my big what-ifs wonders is having Hitler and Mussolini in opposite trenches of WWI and both shoot each other :)

Just this little incident would have changed the world!

Germany easily would have gone Communist in 1920's.

hmm Germany allied with USSR in 1939? Stalin invades Poland in 1939?

Scary!

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Genghis, that would be FUN! One of the first books I read about WW1 described Italians and Austia-Hungarians fighting in the Alps. They were wearing ancient armor? They fought with swords? I want this confirmed!?

Poor ole Germany carried Austria-Hungary, she was a weak Power. The Ottomons were on there way out too. I would have never committed to such a War! The Kaiser did get cold feet, when the troops began to ship out and he asked if they could be stopped. It was a slow detoriation of politics and Balance in the region. Also the 1st and 2nd Balkan Wars opening up the ethnic hatred. Really the Great War, was the beginning of the End for Germany. She is far too weak in WW2 to conquor everyone. She relied on early conquests to become a SuperPower. That an annexation, it was really prudent to take to War so early as 1939. They made the same mistakes the French did in the previous century, underestimated the harshness and vastness of Mother Russia and it's Will. Regardless of what I know of the poor quality of Russian soldiers they fought a World Power and proved themselves. Even Americans and British payed relatively small amount of lives in comparison. 500k and 400k?

Suprisingly, after Italy surrendered I believe her soldiers fought better. Did not 80k die fighting with the liberating Allied Armies? So perhaps their cause was their lack of motivation. Whilst World Domination was every German's cause, that and Pride.

Russia what drove her men? What gave them the ability to fight, the fact that it was that or death? I am still wondering, cause I know that the Communist state was harsh as hell on her people. I would think they wouldn't fight hard for such a cause though I am wrong. Also, how do you defeat a people when they're all willing to die? Without Nuclear weapons and acting quickly you have Scorth the Earth.

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Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary are all primarily Slavic. Hungarians are Maygars? I don't know what race they're considered to be. Also Southern Ialians have a heavy concentration of Mediterrean blood, which is Asian in descent. Did Hitler's Allies research their Ally or did they just kiss his butt rather than die?

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Originally posted by Liam:

Jim:

Only an idiot goes out to purify a race that is already 60-80% slavic anyways! All us brown eyed brown haired people have slav in us just about. Look at Hitler, he looks downright Polish/Jewish to me!

LMAO Soo true he had Jewish and i believe it was Austrian in his heritage lol.

BUT in commenting on "What If's" I would like to see a 39 scenerio without Poland Being Activated and readiness values modified accordingly.

What if Germany does not start there? Would this game start with Dec on Poland first turn or not?

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Interesting thread.

Genghis

My guess is if if Mussolini and Hitler had shot each other their place would have been taken by even worse lunatics. Which leads to an interesting question; does the man create the situation or does the situation create the man?

In Germany's case I think there were a hundred thousand war deragnged, dissillusioned Hitler's who would have come forward and displaced the enfeebled bankers and industrialists who became the defacto rulers through Weimar. The real twist would have been if the disgruntled psycho emerging instead of Hitler were a German Jew. The credo of the OyeVeyhh party might have been Forget your petty squabbles, Germans Unite and Conquer! and who knows -- at least we wouldn'g have had the concentration camps and perhaps there'd have been an improved mustache.

Hueristic

If racial purity were the issue Adolf Hitler was the biggest mutt imaginable. He couldn't possibly have entered his own SS, nor could Heinrich Himmler nor Hermann Goering nor Joseph Goebels. They pushed this idiotic concept that they themselves didn't fit in.

Liam

I wouldn't try making much sense of their racial theories; they themselves didn't have a clear idea of what they trying to say. In the thirties they sent SS "scientists" to Tibet to investigate Ayrian origins and during the war they dug up archeological sites in the Ukrain. At one point Himmerler put on exhibit and Hitler walked around sulking, seemingly incensed that the Italian Count Ciano never stopped smiling. Later Hitler told a friend, probably either Goebels or Borman, "That fool Himmler, all he's succeeded in doing is proving we lived in mud huts while they were surrounded by marble temples!" As their army withdrew the digs were detonated by the SS to prevent Soviet exploitation of Ayrian history.

Archibald

A lot of sites, angelfire being one of the worst, don't come through. It's better just to post the path and others click on it. If you have a good image the way I've been doing it now is to put it in URL with the second entry being the photo's title or other note. As the biggest user of the image option I've sworn off because Moon explained how badly it drains resources and slows things down. Originally I thought the issue was over my choice of images, which didn't make sense, but if it's a site efficiency issue I have to go along with him 100%. Also, with the image masked by a URL title tab you'll probably have more freedom in posting photos: nobody has to see it if they don't want to click on it.

Looking forward to seeing that plane you found. Also, the thing about those wooden planes Germany was making late in the war wasn't so much the wood as the glue. It was substandard and they knew it. The damn things were crates that fell apart. They made a portable jet that way and gave a bunch of them to the Hitler Youth without risking skilled test pilots to check them out first -- "So long kids, have fun!"

[ January 12, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Interesting thread.

Well even though it's not actually SC realated I'm intrigued. This an aspect of History i am truley unfamiliar with. Thx Jersey for the info. Got any quick refeneces i can check out? I am not running to a boockstore BTW. Links are better. smile.gif
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Hueristic

Same here, great stuff not quite about the game but relevant. Don't know any sites, I like books, but I'd start with Geopolitics or maybe wiesenthal.com might have material or links. I'll start looking and if I find any I'll fill you in on it.

[ January 12, 2003, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

Gentlemen:

It seems to me you are suggesting a totally random set-up of the five major powers with each player being able to negotiate his own alliance.

I certainly think that is on topic.

That would be a great addition or expansion scenerio or i dunno what it would be called but i'd love to see how it played out.
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Jim

Same here. Hueristic and myself did some posting on this idea, including a random map editor and other things. The response we inspired was less than friendly. Now that there are three of us pushing it, who knows.

Mr H --

Sweet -- you'll kick back and wait -- !! I was under the impression we'd both be looking and would fill each other in, and all that -- now it seems we've both kicked back (you didn't think I was really searching for this stuff did you?) and are waiting for results nobody's looking for! So let me rephrase it. If, through some unlikely miracle, some of this stuff falls into my lap, which I doubt, I'll be more than pleased to share it with you and I presume likewise. tongue.gif

There's another site, shoah.com that might also have links.

[ January 12, 2003, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Mr H --

Sweet -- you'll kick back and wait -- !! I was under the impression we'd both be looking and would fill each other in, and all that -- now it seems we've both kicked back (you didn't think I was really searching for this stuff did you?) and are waiting for results nobody's looking for! So let me rephrase it. If, through some unlikely miracle, some of this stuff falls into my lap, which I doubt, I'll be more than pleased to share it with you and I presume likewise.

LMAO ahh my Lazy streak will be the end of me smile.gif
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For the way that I hear the game is played amongst the best player it would seem a additive to make the 5 nations Diplomatic rather then set teams. Though a break away from tradition I wouldn't mind seeing it! France belongs in the Axis tongue.gif . That way they'd have a Navy

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Well if no one has done it yet..I'll create a 1939 mod with germany and Russia allied versus France, UK, and US.

Not sure if Italy will be allied to UK or Germany still. Italy might have easily gone Communist too back in the 1920's.

I'll give the US much more MPP's to work with to help offset the huge Russian advantage.

Can I change a neutral county's chances of joining either side? Can this be done in the editor?

This should be a fun game to play.

JerseyJohn -

Agreed..if Hitler wasn't around..another crackpot probably would have emerged in all the post WWI chaos in Germany. one thing was for sure though..I doubt the Hohenzollerns (aka the Kaiser) would have ever come back.

[ January 13, 2003, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

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Genghis

Along these lines, a what-if scenario several of us were working on a few months back assumed the Kaiser had accepted the Allied peace offer in 1918 after Germany had signed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk with Russia. In the treaty Germany controled half of European Russia as protector of the Baltic countries and Ukrania and with all of Poland as a territory. In return she had to withdraw from Belgium and Northern France. The Allies were even willing to return her African Colonies. Kaiser Wilhelm II turned it down believing he could defeat France outright and keep Belgium as well!

In our scenario it was Sept 1939 with Britain and France drawn into an unholy alliance with the Soviet Union and Stalin has taken advantage of this to invade Ukrania, dragging most of Europe into his war.

Interested your scenario idea. You should write it up in Carl von Mannerheim's Forum on new Scenarios. The idea was to have a place where people could exchange ideas on these things.

[ January 13, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

I definitely trust Speer on figures though I think he reinvented himself at the Nuremburg Trials!

Manpower etc .... Exactly, plus the toll paid by the Luftwaffe in irreplacable pilots lost against swarms of bombers and later against the long range escorts that Adolph Galland called the best fighters he'd ever seen.

I disagree to some extent.

The main problem the Luftwaffe had was not only planes, but also fueling them.

Germany had the pilots, but the factories could not keep up in production due to Allied bombing.

As a side effect, the heavy bombing put a serious dent into Axis fuel supplies, contributing to one of the main reasons for the drop off in pilot quality, being that training was widdled down to almost zilch.

The Luftwaffe from around 1941 on was conducted in the role of a "fire brigade" rushed all over the place to try and stop the point where the most bleeding was occuring.

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Maybe as the war progressed Oil was a big contributor to the degrading of the luftwaffe's quality. The Good pilots, died protecting the Reich. The newbies died, cause they were improperly trained<lack of oil>. Where ever that sick dude who ran the Luftwaffe was at??? He nurtured the health of his Airforce about as much as his personal health. Herman Hasbeen Goering! Fat, 6 fingers on every finger! Went mad without his morphin, had to have it injectable and ready. Those are stories I've heard tongue.gif

We needed more competent German's to for a real enemy.

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Gaylord

Agreed, it was a combination of things. Having so little fuel to spare also meant, as the shortage became more acute German pilots could spend less flight hours in training.

Germany has always specialized in synthetic fuel manufacture and those plants were also one of the American strategic targets. Even if they'd been left alone they didn't produce enough to seriously affect the situation.

Liam

Goering may have admitted to those physical conditions depending upon what sort of drug he was using on any given day, but in actuality I think he probably had the normal number of digits. Like any child he loved model trains and Hitler often joked about this, asking at strategy meetings if his generals had seen Goering playing with his toy trains. Then he'd smile and shake his head and follow with, "You should, really, it's quite a sight."

Beneath the inept bafoonlike appearance was the founder of the Gestapo and author of Germany's murderous policy of mass pilage in Russia. A brilliant concept: the Ukrainians were to work the land as slaves and, after the harvest, surrender all the bounty to their German overlords. Being left to live on roots and rodents would have made them good subjects of the Reich I suppose.

[ January 13, 2003, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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The Luftwaffe was ahead of it's time during the Spanish Civil War! The HE-111 which is not represented in the game was the best fast medium bomber of the early period of the War. That gave the Germans a pounch against the Frogs and Limeys at various stages and the Allied Minors. I would like to see that med-lt-or dive bomber represented in the game. Specializing in weakening entrenchment and fortifications, or tankbusting. Also effective in damaging HQs, and supply short range. Probably the significant winner for the Germans. The Blensheims were pretty good too, maybe both sides deserve a red herring. Since the Battle Of France has taken such presidence in the game lately.

BIG THING! In 1940 I'd give the Germans level 1 fighters or at least<!> a bomber and a full experience point for one airfleet.

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Though I talk trash on the Me-109 the updated versions by or around fall of France were hellish. Daimler Benz, fast powerplant, Good handling..Turn rate rough equivelant of the lovely Spitire<which was the minority of the RAF in 1940>. The Hawk-75 was no comparison, it was way behind German aviation. Also some models of the 109 had a special 20 minute of Water Injected Power. Despite weak armament<it had cannons> and enough to take out any Allied fighter short range. In fact that may have been the primary reason for the Fall of France and lack of Supply and equipment.

You can't strato bomb Germany until the later scenarios that should be corrected. Longe Range aircraft were available to the Brit's early.

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Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

Gentlemen:

It seems to me you are suggesting a totally random set-up of the five major powers with each player being able to negotiate his own alliance.

I certainly think that is on topic.

WOW Massive Multiplayer game where the Major powers can be individually played or multiple powers by one individual. That would kick ass haveing to coordinate attacks with your allies. Course who wants to get stuck with france lol
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