David Stone Posted July 9, 1999 Share Posted July 9, 1999 I know little about mortars or how they function. So, can someone explain to me, if using the 60mm mortar shells as grenades was possible ?? Seems to me : smacking them against a base plate would ignite the fuse, then the propellant-- sending the round shooting off wildly. Any insight?? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy Posted July 9, 1999 Share Posted July 9, 1999 Not a clue, dude - although I've read WW2 documentary-type books in which soldiers did that exact thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 In the movie they used bazooka shells manually, not 60mm mortar shells. (Bazookas happen to be 60mm so maybe that's where the confusion arose?) I don't know if such use is realistic or not though. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 I think they were supposed to be mortar rounds. They had a bazooka that was out of ammo (used the last one on the HT think). However, they had mortar rounds but no mortar. In any case, it is highly unlike this would have worked. In theory, I think, you can pull out the propellant charge and trigger them the way it was done in the movie. However, I remember some vet being interviewed and he said that this would be next to suicidal to try in real life. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 I think the propellant is ignited by an electrical charge. Therefore smacking the bottom of the round would only "arm" the warhead. I don't think mortar rounds had timed fuses, rather the round goes off on impact with the ground. Just a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 Well SPR had more realism issues than that. My worst spot was when the guy jumped onto the Tiger front hull and managed to shoot the driver with his tommy gun. Gees, have they never heard of driver's vision blocks? Fionn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 In SPR they are supposed to be throwing mortar rounds not bazooka rounds. I've never done this but have heard that it's feasible. A quick explanation of how mortar rounds work: Each round has a small percussion cap at the back end. There is NO propellant inside a mortar round. Just the cap (though it might produce enough umpff to propell the round a tad in some mortar types). Outside the tail of the mortar round are a number of wide o-ring shaped pads (or wafers) of propellant. Sometimes they are little bags. These are known in mortarman parlance as "cheeses" since that's what they look like. When you fire mortar rounds the number of cheeses on the round, combined with the angle of the tube, determines the range. So if a mortar round has 4 cheeses, part of prepping the round includes removing cheeses if necessary. BTW the cheeses do not explode but burn, so part of the aftermath of any good mortar shoot is when you pile up all the cheeses and burn them. It's cool, but don't get too close! Now up near the nose of the mortar round there is a metal ring with a pin in it. This is the fuze. Having prepped the round by removing the appropriate cheeses, you would pull the pin. You hand the round to the guy dropping it, who hangs it in the tube and then lets it go. Usually after the round leaves the tube it spins a few times tossing off the safety ring (this depends on the type of round, sometimes you just remove it completely), thus ensuring it won't blow up in your face. However it comes off, once the safety ring is gone, the round WILL blow up if you drop it on it's nose, so don't. So anyway, I am only familiar with modern 60mm, 81mm, 82mm, and 4.2" mortar rounds. I have never seen a WW2 vintage 60mm round so take what I say witha grain of salt. I am not a mortar man by trade but once a year just for porfficiency's sake we have a mortar day. I also spent one month in a mortar platoon in Alaska as part of an exchange once. It was a great time. There's nothing like firing off a bunch of rounds and then waiting a minute and hear the explosions in the distance far away. (they sound like someone slamming a bunch of huge doors) RE: The vision slits, many tanks it WW2 did not have glass blocks or would have them remove after they were shattered. I do not know if the Tiger falls into this category. I doubt it does because if it had bullet proof vision glass they would not have included armored doors over the small vision blocks. But I could be wrong. They have a few Tigers at the proving Grounds in Maryland that I have crawled over plus at Fort Knox) but I do not recall looking into the blocks. As far as realism in SPR, I have seen inane discussions about how this Ranger bn or that landed a mile this way or that, thus invalidated the movie, blah blah blah. The fact is, SPR is the most realistic portrayal of combat hands down, that's the point of the movie, IMO, small blemishes in technical accuracy aside. The only thing wrong about it is that it's not about the 82d. ;-p However running a close second I would HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend Winter War, a finnish movie which came out a few years ago about the Russian invasion of Finland in 1939. Oh my God! Don't ask me where they got all tose T26s and all that other obscure 1939 russian armor! Get your hands on it at all costs. There is a subtitled version available through Belle and Blade. cheers... Los [This message has been edited by Los (edited 07-09-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 Theres a great Finnish tank museum with lots of those Soviet tanks of that era still preserved. They used mostly those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 I've read that the Sovs had warehouses with mothballed T34-85s and other sundry WW2 equipment, just in case they ever needed it (bad sci-fi plot there--"Strange timewarp makes all modern equipment disappear and soldiers have to figure out how to use the stuff built before they were born") DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 With regards the Tiger- I read a book a long while back that was put out by Fedorowicz, and it was basically about small unit actions involving the schwerer tank battalions on the Eastern Front, and in Normandy. Sorry, I can't remember the title. One action that sticks in my mind involved an attack where a Tiger was immobilized by a 45mm AT gun (took off the track), and was then swarmed by Russian infantry. It was mentioned that the driver's viewing block was cracked by MG fire, but not broken. Another tank (a Tiger or a PzIV, can't remember) knocked the Russians off the first tank with coaxial MG fire, and proceeded to rescue the crew of the first, with the help of a platoon of Panzergrenadiers. I guess the vision blocks had armoured glass in them- I know the cupola did, that I have seen in pictures. Anyway, I thought SPR was a good movie- guess they can't cover all the bases all the time. [This message has been edited by Kevin Peltz (edited 07-10-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 Additional to my previous remark- it just occurred to me that the Tiger was originally built to travel completely submerged, with preparation. I guess there would have to have been something in the vision ports to keep the water out. Later variants had the submergence kit deleted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 Only the first batch of Tigers were designed to go under, from what I recall. After a while they realized that it was too expensive and difficult to maintain, so they dropped it. It isn't easy to get a tank to swim! BTW, you can pick up a T34/85 for between $35k-$65k depending on condition. I've even seen one ad for a JS2, but the price said it was in said shape. I know of some older T-34s that are in private hands in the US and GB, so there must be more the further East you go. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 The Tiger Is definitely had vision blocks for the drivers. I wrote a piece which necessitated some research into them so I'm absolutely 100% certain that they had them. They could be cracked by MG fire but it basically needed a cannon hit to penetrate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 I have a vision block from a russian tank (not sure which model) at home... well, there is a reason they're called "blocks". It's one piece of solid glass and weights a ton (well, not really, but it's dang heavy ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 ANother good point, just becasue teh guy fired into the vision blocks doesn't mean he killed anybody. It's a good tactic to blind the tank, that's as good away to do it as any. I remember an old WW2 movie where they caked mud on the thing. The fact of the matter is once you have infantry crawling all over your tank, you are screwed unless someone comes to the rescue. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted July 10, 1999 Share Posted July 10, 1999 An emergency pamphlet put out by the Germans showed the "right way" to attack a tank. First was to jump up on the tank with a helmet full of mud. Slop the mud on the vision ports. Then take something like a crowbar and smack the MG barrels as hard as you can. This blinds the tank and causes the crew to be without external protection. Then the soldier was supposed to shimmy out on the gun barrel and toss a grenade or two down the gun opening, drop off, and run like hell! Keep in mind this was 1941 and designed for rendering a tank useless with nothing more than a grenade and a lot of bravado! If you had mines, obviously there would be more options. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 11, 1999 Share Posted July 11, 1999 Gees, I don't know about anyone else here but if my CO handed me that pamphlet and said he though we'd have to use those tactics to stop tanks I'd run over to the other side and surrender. With a panzerfaust I can be brave, with a Tellermine I can be determined but with a bucket full of muck and 2 grenades I'm gonna surrender . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted July 11, 1999 Share Posted July 11, 1999 In regards to Los' post, George Forty's book _German Tanks of World War Two_ has a GREAT story about a German PanzerIII tank commander in Russia who was sent out, with a second PanzerIII, to find a staff car that had gone missing. For the mission, a lieutenant commandeered the narrator's tank and the narrator sat himself in the loader's seat. The new LT was really tall, and so was reluctant to button himself up. Too reluctant. A bunch of Soviet infantrymen were waiting in ambush and swarmed over the tank, dumping a Molotov on the LT and burning him badly. The narrator managed to get the LT pulled down and away from the hatch, but there were enemy infantry all over the turret, blocking the driver's vision ports, and generally playing Hob with the tank. Only the intervention of the second tank, firing belt after belt of MG onto the narrator's vehicle, saved the day. After some time to make re-arrangements, they found the staff car, and its dead occupants. Then, to top it all off, when the narrator arrived back at laager, he got a royal ass-chewing from his CO for "taking too long" in finding the staff car. With the LT being unconscious in a field hospital, there was nobody to back up the narrator's story and prove that it wasn't his (narrator's) fault. Moral: Infantry; don't leave home without them, OR Button up for safety! DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted July 23, 1999 Share Posted July 23, 1999 About vision blocks and tactics ... One of the ways the Germans managed to tackle those scary KV tanks early in the war was to aim machinegun fire at the vision slots. Either they smashed the blocks and impaired vision, or a few rounds would ricochet inside the tank !!! Still you have to wonder how the Germans managed to kill all those T34's with just 37mm and 50mm AT guns ... 88's were RARE ! Saving Private Ryan is great, but the TIger tank is NOT the real thing !!! It's a modified T34 !!! Still one helluva job making that replica ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Posted July 23, 1999 Share Posted July 23, 1999 WORLD WAR II MEDAL OF HONOR RECIPIENT ANDERSON, BEAUFORT T. Rank and organization: Technical Sergeant, U.S. Army, 381st Infantry, 96th Infantry Division. Place and date: Okinawa, 13 April 1945. Entered service at: Soldiers Grove, Wis. Birth: Eagle, Wis. G.O. No.: 63, 27 June 1946. Citation: He displayed conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty. When a powerfully conducted predawn Japanese counterattack struck his unit's flank, he ordered his men to take cover in an old tomb, and then, armed only with a carbine, faced the onslaught alone. After emptying 1 magazine at pointblank range into the screaming attackers, he seized an enemy mortar dud and threw it back among the charging Japs, killing several as it burst. Securing a box of mortar shells, he extracted the safety pins, banged the bases upon a rock to arm them and proceeded alternately to hurl shells and fire his piece among the fanatical foe, finally forcing them to withdraw. Despite the protests of his comrades, and bleeding profusely from a severe shrapnel wound, he made his way to his company commander to report the action. T/Sgt. Anderson's intrepid conduct in the face of overwhelming odds accounted for 25 enemy killed and several machineguns and knee mortars destroyed, thus single-handedly removing a serious threat to the company's flank http://www4.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm [This message has been edited by Rock (edited 07-23-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 23, 1999 Share Posted July 23, 1999 Good post Rock, What source is this from? If its a book I'd imagine it would make a very interesting read and would appreciate details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted July 27, 1999 Share Posted July 27, 1999 Read a brief section on knocking out the infamous Tiger tank. As we all know, Hitler was creating new divisions and using inexperienced tankers to pilot the new heavy armor. Anyways, an awesome Tiger was traveling on a roadway, when suddenly a soldier stepped out and fired on the TIGER with a rifle. The driver panicked (unhit I might add) and drove off the road and got stuck. If anyone needs the exact details and book, I will find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted July 27, 1999 Share Posted July 27, 1999 Actually there are more incredible Tiger related stories out there ... What about a Canadian Sherman that suddenly happens upon a Tiger charging towards them. They fire at it out of sheer desperation and find that after three or so shots the Tiger stops ... The Sherman fires again, but suddenly the hatches open and the crew of the Tiger surrender. Apparently they were a recovery crew and had just picked up that Tiger whose 88 had malfunctioned. They had hoped to scare away the Sherman, but discovering that the Sherman stood its ground surrendered ... Another story (unverified) A Sherman going through the Ardennes suddenly sees a Tiger II pop out less than 10 yards away from them. In desperation the driver hits the throttle and the sherman rams into the Tiger II. Both crews are stunned, but the Germans recover first and traverse their turret only to find out the gun sticks beyond the Sherman !!! The Sherman crew fires a shot at point-blank range with their 75mm, which does not pierce the armour, but does stun the crew of the German tank long enough for them to get away !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted July 27, 1999 Share Posted July 27, 1999 The German high command decided near the end of the war to put the inexperienced troops in the best tanks available, hoping the superior equipment would make up for experience. This generally meant green crews in Panthers, while the veterans had to do miracles with Marders and Stugs ... Most allied tankers commented that it was not the big powerful tanks they were most scared of (you sometimes could hear them come a mile away ...), but by the sneaky Marders and Hetzers that would lay in ambush and pick out allied tanks one by one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownsendVol Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 Great stories, keep em comming. I might just survive work today. I also think that sometimes the fans of a certain product or time period are so into that topic that they become to picky and want too much of what they feel should be there. In the end I think that can sometimes hurt a certain type of game or type of movie because they know they cannot please their fans and it doesnt appeal to the masses. I dont think this is the case in the Pvt.Ryan movie but I think it is the case with some games. The best companies will still take the projects on and strive for the best, the others will just avoid it all together. I a way this is good that it weeds out the ones not truely dedicated. I just think there is a fine line between expecting something to be perfect and accepting it for what it is. [This message has been edited by TownsendVol (edited 01-03-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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