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[Andreas]

Originally posted by Runyan99:

I asked you to use our game as an example. Could your units actually resupply in this circumstance? Again, how reliably, and how much?

Cory - that is why I am experimenting with static operations. You would expect breaks in the combat in which you reorg, and bring up ammo, evacuate the wounded, and do whatever infantry does when they are not shooting at the other guys, but are too close to them to have some Schnaps.

I think it is impossible to have a generalised answer to your questions.

How reliably? - are your LOS secure and covered from enemy view? Is there another formation that needs resupply more? What is the general state of supply in your sector?

How much? - how many chaps do you have available in rear echelon to do the carrying? What is the general state of supply in your area? Are you cut-off?

[Michael Dorosh]

Add to that how sharp your CQMS staff is; did they set up a proper ammunition dump before hand? Do all your platoons know where it is? Was it in the company orders? Did you have time for company orders before the fight began? How far away has your echelon been set up (with the horses/wagons/carriers/trucks carrying the ammo?)

Generally, the battalion would set up an ammunition point, and the companies would draw their ammo from there.

The battalion in turn drew its ammo from Brigade/Regimental dumps, who got their from the divisional ordnance services, etc. etc.

The people doing these tasks were not infantrymen; in essence their main function in a battle was keeping the ammunition moving to those that needed it.

I wish the Operations in CM worked better - for example, allowing the front line to be drawn more like in the ASL campaign games - not so rigidly. It would allow a 5 hour battle to be much better portrayed.

In a fight like the Kamienka scenario, likely companies would leave the map to fetch more ammo as needed, then return to the fight. (Though really, they would also better ration their ammo than the TacAI does, and also be able to share ammo between weapons). That is impossible in CM, and ammoless units are either routed or else leave the map never to return.

[ December 14, 2003, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Runyan99]

Clearly, there are breaks in combat. But how often? Depending on the combat action, this must vary. Sometimes, the break may come after 20 minutes, and other times after two hours. In any case, it seems obvious that it is the attacker ONLY that can dictate a combat pause.

My beef is that every CM player now feels entitled to these breaks at 40 minutes or so. Why? Generally, it is because the defender and/or attacker starts to run out of ammo at this point.

But, I feel strongly that an attack might last longer than the typical 30-40 turn CM scenario. What happens then?

Consider - the Russians are attacking a hill. The hill is defended by an understrength German infantry battalion. The Russians have two battalions that they are going to use in two waves, one after the other. The attack of the first battalion goes in, and lasts for 40 mintutes. Then, the second battalion is immediately released to attack the hill without any break in the action. The attack of the second battalion may take another 40 minutes, or more.

I don't think this is an unreasonable scenario.

The question is - what is the state of the German infantry on the hill? Are they low on ammo after the first attack? Can they resupply in action, under fire? How much? If they cannot resupply, what do they do? Withdraw? Surrender? Die?

I understand that these may be difficult questions to answer, but I am frustrated with the general supposition that these battles cannot possibly have lasted longer than the defender's initial ammuntion supply.

[ December 14, 2003, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Runyan99 ]

[Andreas]

Cory, in your example, you set it up as a static op, with the Germans set to a very low supply level. 2 battles, 40 rounds each. First battle one of the two Soviet battalions, second battle the other, fresh one.

Special rule in the briefing that the first Soviet battalion is not to be used in battle two. To make more sure it is adhered to, also set Soviet re-supply extremely low.

Of course players can disregard it, but then again, who cares if they do?

Only thing you could argue is that the Germans get the chance to redeploy a bit, but I don't think that is unrealistic, because there will be a break in the attack when the two battalions switch.

[Runyan99]

I agree that is an ideal CM solution, but I am more interested in the Real Life answers at the moment. Your CM solution also assumes that the Russians will withdraw the first battalion before the second goes in, thereby giving the defenders a breather. I am not at all convinced that this would always be the case.

If the Russians do not pause to withdraw the first battalion, but throw in the second battalion immediately, while elements of the first battalion are still on the field and engaged, what can the German battalion do? (I imagine Conscript Russian battalions being thrown at German postions in the Spring of 1942).

Is resupply realistic in this situation?

No one seems to know the answer.

Presumably the next CM engine will feature some kind of resupply model. If so, these are the kinds of things that need to be thought about.

[ December 14, 2003, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Runyan99 ]

[Andreas]

Cory

whether there is a break or not is pretty meaningless if German resupply is set to the lowest level. They will have the break, but no resupply.

Also, I believe that there would be at least a short break, if only to sort out things for the two Russian battalions (second commander needs to be briefed on what happened with the first etc.)

I think CM can simulate this quite well in a static operation.