Like Big Scenarios? Check out my stuff at the Depot.

[Runyan99]

If you do, take a look at my scenarios at the Depot.

Gorodok

Okhvat Station

Tank Attack at Okhvat

Kamienka

South of Kharkov

The Road to Sabinovka

Generally, these are battalion (+) sized engagements on maps as big as CMBB will allow. This allows for historic-sized engagements, freedom of maneuver, and realistic OOBs.

I feel that scenarios created under these parameters get CM as close to 'the real war' as possible. That is my goal.

Some are tank battles, some are infantry only, some allow combined arms for one side or the other.

My design philosophy also includes taking time pressure off of the attacker. Historically, battalion sized attacks almost always took hours to complete, so 30 and 40 minute time limits in CM don't make sense to me. These scenarios are all 90-120 turns, so that tactics are not dictated by an artificial 'game clock'. This allows for realistic tactics, that play out in a more historically-accurate amount of time. If the players don't need all of the time, then they can end the game by ceasefire.

Lest you think that the time allotment makes things too easy for the attacker, be assured that there is a trade off here! That time comes with an added responsibility on the part of the attacker to keep casualties as low as possible (just as in real life). In all scenarios, the objective flags are worth much less than the VP value of the forces involved. This way, casualties will generally determine who wins and loses the scenario.

Also, due to the length of the scenarios, small arms ammunition for both sides is often maxed out. This simulates either a double heavy combat load, or a small amount of resupply at some point during the scenario.

Part of the maneuver element also means that forces never start in contact in these scenarios. The attacking player will have to move into contact with the enemy. That generally means an approach march for the attacker that may take 20 turns or so. Why not eliminate this portion of the game? I feel it adds an extra element of realism and challenge for the attacker generally not present in CM scenarios. The attacker cannot know exactly when or how contact with the enemy will be made, and may have to advance for some distace under enemy fire. If the attacker's approach march is sloppy, then he may have a hard time organizing his forces for the actual attack!

Because of the size and length of these scenarios, they are best played PBEM against a human opponent. Plan on a long game with a friend.

My newest addition is a very realistic-sized depiction of the attack made by 'Grossdeutschland' at the village of Kamienka.

Available here:

http://ns9.super-hosts.com/~dragonlair.net/combatmission/

[Michael Dorosh]

Re: your playtest comments in the CM:BB forum - I may be better off cutting my eyes out than starting a 120 turn (!) PBEM, but - I'd be interested in playing this one against you (with me as Russians). If you're game, email me a setup at madorosh@shaw.ca

I've downloaded the scenario before you posted here, but didn't look at the force makeups in detail (I mean, I did, but I didn't memorize them).

[Runyan99]

I accept. I'll send it along.

[Runyan99]

The response has been underwhelming, but..

I did have a PBEM opponent of mine tell me that he likes Gorodok. At least a few of you are playing them. Silent though you are.

[Andreas]

Okhvat Station my PBEM partner just disappeared for a long time, not sure if I can pick it up again.

Gorodok - that is the one in AG North? If so, I can comment a bit on it.

I'll see if I find somebody else to play for the others.

I like the maps (would like them even more if you took my advice ) and I like the whole setting. The trouble is to find a PBEM partner for the big ones.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Okhvat Station my PBEM partner just disappeared for a long time, not sure if I can pick it up again.

Gorodok - that is the one in AG North? If so, I can comment a bit on it.

I'll see if I find somebody else to play for the others.

I like the maps (would like them even more if you took my advice ) and I like the whole setting. The trouble is to find a PBEM partner for the big ones.

Me likes big battles.

If you don't mind occasional slow turn rates, I'll give it a try. (Occassional TCP/IP in the evening or on weekends - if I figure out how it works).

Gruß

Joachim

[Andreas]

Sure - I dig out the other one Cory sent to me and send you a setup tonight.

We'll see if your turnrates can possibly beat mine in slovenliness

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I like the maps (would like them even more if you took my advice ) and I like the whole setting. The trouble is to find a PBEM partner for the big ones.

Now I am curious - what was the advice?

The Kamienka map is quite realistic looking (though I've never been to Kamienka and have no idea what the terrain was like there - I just mean in general).

It is always interesting to see someone else's take on a situation you have done (my Assault on Kamienka has received some degree of positive attention at the depot).

Our 120 turn slugfest has slipped past the 1/6 point with no contact yet...

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Sure - I dig out the other one Cory sent to me and send you a setup tonight.

We'll see if your turnrates can possibly beat mine in slovenliness

Mail with my email address is out.

In a 120+ turn monster I'd expect finishing sometime before christmas .

BTW: Do you know "my" forces and setup zones or just yours?

Gruß

Joachim

[ November 12, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Scarhead ]

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Scarhead:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

Sure - I dig out the other one Cory sent to me and send you a setup tonight.

We'll see if your turnrates can possibly beat mine in slovenliness

Mail with my email address is out.

In a 120+ turn monster I'd expect finishing sometime before christmas .

BTW: Do you know "my" forces and setup zones or just yours?

Gruß

Joachim </font>

[Runyan99]

Andreas, I did take your advice. (He wanted more detail in the village of Okhvat). I'll send you a new file.

All the most updated files are already at the Scenario Depot also.

[Brent Pollock]

I'm not averse to trying some big scenarios. "ASL Veteran" and I have just started playtesting his version of The Last Bid, the ASL monster scenario from the Red Barricades HASL. Never got to play it on paper but it seems I'll finally get to "in silico".

[Joachim]

Ok, so I got the setup for the 120 turn battle. Some thoughts about it...

First thing I saw was May 1942 - cooool! I just might have some armor capable of piercing any of his armor.

Huge map. Open country. Infantry force type. Clear sky, dry(?) ground.

Time to man the rant stations!

Checking the terrain, the first thing I find are some excellent lines of communication - on his side of the map.

A big forest in the center around a big flag, 2 big flags on each flank - in open terrain.

Mostly open terrain in front of the woods. Little cover around my starting positions. Then a big surprise: Damp ground.

Checking my own forces...

What the hell do you do with PaK 3,7cm vs enemy infantry??? Ok. There might be some bunkers. But how to transport my guns???? Now I know why it is a 120 turn monster - this is enough time to shove them across the whole map!!!

Then I had to guess what the enemy has - and where exactly he is. This is a semi-historic scenario, and as of now I have not seen what the other side has (and I guess this will stay so for about the next year )

From my force I deduce he has a btn of infantry, the briefing suggests it has losses of 20% or above. It is dug in in the central forest with outposts guarding some patches of woods and trees covering the routes to the 3 flags. (If I was a scen designer, I would have used 2 or 3 Soviet setup zones to ensure that there is a limited number of outposts and I would have fixed the trenches in some clusters...). But maybe he has his full map side at his disposal, and can put the trenches wherever he wants them.

Then I'll probably face some bunkers and infantry guns, maybe some Soviet 7,6cm Pak.

And of course some arty - with TRPs. If he has an abundant amount of them, any attack will falter...

Now after reading any post of JasonC, especially those regarding advances across open terrain, I'll complete my setup. Then I'll check most of Fionn's articles re maneuverism and apply them to my abundant armor force.

Gentlemen, this place is idealy suited for an attack. The bolshewist hordes will crumble in front of my massive onslaught.

My armor will easily be able to take out any of his armor - and I doubt I will loose a single tank! :cool:

I'll fight war, and the red horseman will return upon a lame pony, and his sword will be used as a plough!

Gruß

Joachim

[Andreas]

While you ramble on, I have sent my men to get a manicure. That way they look more dashing at the victory parade on the Red Square.

The 3,7cm PAK is a superb infantry gun. Don't mock it.

[Runyan99]

Oh goody! This should be fun.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Andreas:

While you ramble on, I have sent my men to get a manicure. That way they look more dashing at the victory parade on the Red Square.

The 3,7cm PAK is a superb infantry gun. Don't mock it.

And the sixth horseman will carry a bowl and he will pour it upon your troops and it contains boredom.

I am not unsporting. I'll give your men a 20 turn leave to finish their manicure. But remember that they will need their nails when panic strikes them and they try to dig deeper while my arty rains on their positions and the huge 37000000 nanometer shells blast their trenches.

Gruß

Joachim

[Michael Dorosh]

A brief AAR on Kamienka.

MINOR SPOILERS

Despite my prediction that his uniformly CRACK troops would wipe the floor with my uniformly CONSCRIPT troops, we are approaching turn 40 (33% of the game) with my troops largely in good order. Enemy StuGs have finally worked their way round the woods, though my mortars and MGs are dueling with his Infantry Guns.

Cory did start off with a gamey mortar barrage on some woods in which the default setup included a company of men.... Pity I moved them...

I really do like the map; if the regular contours had been used my job would have been much easier, but we are using the 1.25 metre contours. Still, some very interesting LOS combinations and an ability to really deploy a battalion realistically with heavy weapons in support. Not an easy map to attack on, though, given the channelling effect of the woods.

[ November 16, 2003, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Runyan99]

Regarding the Kamienka game (no spoilers):

I am having fun with this one. Lots of tactical considerations. My inability to take too many casualties makes this tough. Looks like the village is packed full of Russians!

Yes, I put a mortar barrage on one default setup location. Dorosh relocated his troops, so that particular barrage was wasted. Still, I had to make sure those woods were clear of the enemy.

We are on turn 40ish. I made contact on about turn 20, and my efforts on turns 20-40 have been largely probing in nature. Nice to have the freedom to use this kind of time to conduct a probe. Not something that is possible, or necessary, in most CM scenarios.

I want to note that, at least to this point, ammunition is not an issue, at least on my side.

Dorosh's mortars are giving my support weapons a hard time, but that cannot last forever.

[Runyan99]

Turn 58 of my Kamienka game with Dorosh.

The battle for the village itself is officially beginning. I am seconds away from taking the first Russian foxholes. Casualties on my side are slowly mounting, but are still in the range I deem acceptable. Especially considering the rapidly increasing numbers of fleeing Soviet infantrymen that are being machinegunned and canistered!

Dorosh started griping about his force on turn 50. I have no sympathy, because he knows that historically the Germans took the town, and he chose to play the Russians. I thought I had broken him mentally at that point, but he still seems to have some fight left. We'll see what he has up his sleeve.

Another ammo note. Only now, on turn 58, am I starting to have some 'fought out' units. The few initial platoons I committed to probe the village are now running low on ammo, and will have to be withdrawn soon. They have been in constant combat for more than 30 minutes.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Runyan99:

Turn 58 of my Kamienka game with Dorosh.

Dorosh started griping about his force on turn 50. I have no sympathy, because he knows that historically the Germans took the town, and he chose to play the Russians. I thought I had broken him mentally at that point, but he still seems to have some fight left. We'll see what he has up his sleeve.

No, I griped before the game even started - a force that is universally rated CRACK versus one that is universally rated CONSCRIPT is going to win every time; especially if the attacker has 6 StuGs, a battery of 150mm infantry guns, and mobile FlaK guns and the defender only 3 x 45 mm ATGs and a single 76mm gun which the scenario designer only thought to provide 1 round of armour piercing ammo for. Given that CONSCRIPT troops are further handicapped by the inability to use cover arc commands, I can't see that the German will ever be all that challenged in this one. Also note that the German has the ability to set up his heavy weapons outside the range of the Russians' 50mm mortars, rendering the Russians' sole defence against the guns his 81mm spotter (rated Conscript and thus only able to call down fire in a minimum of 6 or 7 minutes) and his Maxim guns - assuming he wants to save his ATGs for the StuGs (though he probably shouldn't bother.)

I looked at the scenario briefly in the editor and asked myself "who would want to play this" but I figured it would be a very real disservice to simply savage it at the Depot without having tried it first. Hence the run through. I am quite keen on playing it a second time before I review it, as I am reasonably sure I can wipe your force off the map in only 60 turns.

In short, my opinion before Turn One was that the force makeups are poorly thought out and the game offers no real challenge to the German player (though I am a little amazed at how slow your attack has been to develop, and a little tickled at the ability of my mortars to pick off those big Infantry Guns).

The scenario may be the most historic one in existence, but that doesn't make it fun to play, or even a good idea...

Of course, I am a bit biased having put up my own version of this very battle at the depot(actually, George Kelln gets the credit for the idea; I converted his idea from the Grossdeutschland ASL pack - a brand new map replacing the ASL boards, but the force mix is largely George's).

So I wouldn't call it griping, more like wondering if you really feel this scenario is suited for PBEM, with the presumption that most PBEM players prefer balanced fights. The Russian is certainly a challenge, though the only real challenge is in picking initial set up positions. Once the shooting starts the Russian has no ability to stand and fight or redeploy. Although since your attack focussed on the town, I have been able to shift heavy weapons on my flank to better firing positions, and...well, a couple of other surprises on the way...

The majority of my force is still in good order approaching the halfway mark, though the casualties inflicted by the heavy weapons have probably tipped the victory over to the Germans side with no way of getting it back, given a halfway competent attack.

Now, had I kept my troops in the default setup I think this one would have been over long ago; I decided it wise to withdraw completely from the woods masses in front of the town (the main mass, and the smaller mass you gamily shelled ) and set up on the reverse slope of the ridge in front of the town. This paid dividends early on since your support weapons couldn't be brought to bear; now that the StuGs have eliminated the AT threat they are free to cross the ridge and shoot anything that moves.

Given the 120 turn time limit, there is simply nothing to stop them.

I think the map is great, the forces could probably be lived with, but if the time limit were halved, the German player would be forced to be less cautious with his heavy weapons and the Russian just might be able to make a go of it. Scenario Designers call this the "burden of attack" and the time limit is a delicate mechanism that can make or break a scenario.

I'd like to see what others think of this one, though, my opinion may be in the minority. But I think the concept of modelling time thus that 1 CM minute = 1 real life minute is faulty. While the real battle may have taken 5 hours or whatever, they also had the ability to replenish ammunition - something my mortars and Maxims could use right now.

Crack troops can simply demonstrate in front of the town for 60 turns, get me to use up my ammo, then move in unopposed. Rather like you're doing right now.

Again, this may be historical but does not make for an interesting game or something a Russian player would really want to do for 120 turns...

Now, if this were a tournament scenario, it might be possible to rate one Russian player against all the other ones, making this one worthwhile, but as a standalone, there is no point in playing the Russian in this one.

[ November 25, 2003, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Runyan99]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I am quite keen on playing it a second time before I review it, as I am reasonably sure I can wipe your force off the map in only 60 turns.

Fair enough. I'm am not convinced of that, however. We'll see in our rematch. If nothing else, I am interested to see your tactics in the attack.

In short, my opinion before Turn One was that the force makeups are poorly thought out and the game offers no real challenge to the German player (though I am a little amazed at how slow your attack has been to develop, and a little tickled at the ability of my mortars to pick off those big Infantry Guns).

The challenge for the German player is not simply to take the village, but to do it at a positive casualty ratio. I disagree that there is no challenge in accomplishing this.

Now, had I kept my troops in the default setup I think this one would have been over long ago; I decided it wise to withdraw completely from the woods masses in front of the town (the main mass, and the smaller mass you gamily shelled ) and set up on the reverse slope of the ridge in front of the town. This paid dividends early on since your support weapons couldn't be brought to bear; now that the StuGs have eliminated the AT threat they are free to cross the ridge and shoot anything that moves.

On the other hand, massing your forces in the village is now leading to very heavy casualties on your part, as I pour fire into the area. No offense, but I think your setup is shooting-gallery bad.

You made your setup decisions, and now have to live with the way in which they play out. I will use a very different setup in our rematch, and we'll see how that plays out. The results may or may not be different. That is the essence of the game.

Again, this may be historical but does not make for an interesting game or something a Russian player would really want to do for 120 turns...

You might be right, but I ask you to withhold that judgement until we have played both games and seen the scores. If you then still feel the scenario is unbalanced, I encourage you to go to the Depot and rip it.

At the moment, I feel this scenario is working pretty well.

[ November 25, 2003, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Runyan99 ]

[Runyan99]

Given the 120 turn time limit, there is simply nothing to stop them.

I think the map is great, the forces could probably be lived with, but if the time limit were halved, the German player would be forced to be less cautious with his heavy weapons and the Russian just might be able to make a go of it. Scenario Designers call this the "burden of attack" and the time limit is a delicate mechanism that can make or break a scenario.

I'd like to see what others think of this one, though, my opinion may be in the minority. But I think the concept of modelling time thus that 1 CM minute = 1 real life minute is faulty. While the real battle may have taken 5 hours or whatever, they also had the ability to replenish ammunition - something my mortars and Maxims could use right now.

Crack troops can simply demonstrate in front of the town for 60 turns, get me to use up my ammo, then move in unopposed. Rather like you're doing right now.

If nothing else, our play of this scenario can open up this debate.

You are starting to decry the time limit, and your ammo state. But in reality, would these hardships be prevented? I am inclined to say 'no'.

Time limit - You talk about halving the time limit and imposing a 'burden of attack'. This is, in my opinion, traditional CM thinking, which I am attempting to break a little bit with these long scenarios. I would argue that the flags in your setup area are in themselves my 'burden of attack'. If I do not take them, or cause you 400 points of casualties (above and beyond my own losses) I am guaranteed to lose the game. Therefore, I have to attack or lose. No further 'burden' is required.

The burden you really want to place on me is the burden of time. You feel I should be forced to 'be less cautious with [my] heavy weapons'. In other words, you want me to be forced to hurry, so that I will make mistakes and take losses. Is that your way to balance a CM game? Most scenario designers seem to follow this formula, but it isn't very realistic, in my opinion. In fact, it is one of the key reasons (but not the only reason) why casualties in the average CM scenario are so much higher than historical units actually took.

On a side note, I felt your SMG game with JasonC was a classic case of CM time compression. Your task was to advance several hundered meters across open terrain, locate enemy positions in heavy urban terrain, and then assault and take your objectives. All in 20 minutes. Is that CM tactics, or real world tactics?

I do not feel the Grossdeutschland would have taken chances with their heavy weapons. I want to try play my game in the same manner. I am trying to use and learn about historical tactics. I am trying to get a feel for the actual pace of WW2 combat operations. I am trying to be careful, not take too many casualties, and see if I can achieve my objectives.

I'll continue this discussion with some questions about ammo use and resupply straightaway.

[ November 25, 2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Runyan99 ]

[Runyan99]

My initial tactics in our game were not intended to drain the defenders of the village of ammunition. Instead, my intention was to locate the enemy defenses within the village, so that I could bring support and heavy weapons to bear on them.

In any case, you say that your mortars and maxims could use some ammo resupply (although I would be suprised if you have too many mortars still operational).

My question is - In our game, the situation being what it is, would they get it? Could they resupply in active combat? Under fire? How much could they get? How long would it take?

I don't have the answers to these questions, but I am inclined to think that resupply in this situation would be limited to none. Maybe stationary MG teams can send a runner for a couple boxes of ammo, but this type of resupply can only provide so much. Squads on the move cannot possibly resupply.

It seems to me that both sides, attacker and defender, need a pause to bring up and distribute ammunintion.

In our game, my initial probe is going to continue into the actual assault without pause. Follow on forces earmarked for the assault are at full ammo state, and are ready to go. No pause is needed.

In any battle, the attacker is going to dictate the pace and length of the combat. No pause is going to happen, unless the attacker initiates it by breaking off contact.

The upshot is that if you have some units in a low ammo state, I do not think that is unrealistic. In no way however, does that mean that the battle should be over.

I will throw it over to you. The Germans are hammering the village. How much resupply do you think you should get in this situation? Which units could resupply, and how much would they get?

[ November 25, 2003, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Runyan99 ]

[Michael Dorosh]

You are starting to decry the time limit, and your ammo state. But in reality, would these hardships be prevented? I am inclined to say 'no'.

I guess you've never served in an infantry company then. Ammunition resupply is one of the main occupations of the company supply and administration staff. And they did it in action when necessary. It's not simulated in CM - another reason that scenarios are generally not allowed to go on as long as their real life counterparts.

Time limit - You talk about halving the time limit and imposing a 'burden of attack'. This is, in my opinion, traditional CM thinking, which I am attempting to break a little bit with these long scenarios.

Well, beating on tin cans goes against tradtional entertainment thinking, but I would never call it "music." Nor, I think, would money-paying concert goers expecting to hear the local Philharmonic.

I would argue that the flags in your setup area are in themselves my 'burden of attack'. If I do not take them, or cause you 400 points of casualties (above and beyond my own losses) I am guaranteed to lose the game. Therefore, I have to attack or lose. No further 'burden' is required.

The burden you really want to place on me is the burden of time. You feel I should be forced to 'be less cautious with [my] heavy weapons'. In other words, you want me to be forced to hurry, so that I will make mistakes and take losses. Is that your way to balance a CM game? Most scenario designers seem to follow this formula, but it isn't very realistic, in my opinion. In fact, it is one of the key reasons (but not the only reason) why casualties in the average CM scenario are so much higher than historical units actually took.

On a side note, I felt your SMG game with JasonC was a classic case of CM time compression. Your task was to advance several hundered meters across open terrain, locate enemy positions in heavy urban terrain, and then assault and take your objectives. All in 20 minutes. Is that CM tactics, or real world tactics?

I do not feel the Grossdeutschland would have taken chances with their heavy weapons. I want to try play my game in the same manner. I am trying to use and learn about historical tactics. I am trying to get a feel for the actual pace of WW2 combat operations. I am trying to be careful, not take too many casualties, and see if I can achieve my objectives.

I'll continue this discussion with some questions about ammo use and resupply straightaway.

I'd be interested in the reactions of other playtesters to this one. It's been downloaded many times from the Depot - where are you, people?

How did the game with Andreas end up, incidentally?

[Runyan99]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

[QB] I guess you've never served in an infantry company then. Ammunition resupply is one of the main occupations of the company supply and administration staff. And they did it in action when necessary. It's not simulated in CM - another reason that scenarios are generally not allowed to go on as long as their real life counterparts.

I admit I do not know anything about ammuntion resupply in combat. Please educate me.

Very specifically, how long does it take, how much can they deliver, how does it differ in the attack and in the defense.

I asked you to use our game as an example. Could your units actually resupply in this circumstance? Again, how reliably, and how much?