Advice on temporary bridges

[YankeeDog]

I'm thinking about trying my hand at Scenario Design for the first time. I've noodled a bit with creating scenarios to test certain tactical or historical situations, but I've never actually created anything for public consumption.

At any rate, I've got an idea for a scenario that I'd like to try to build. Briefly, the scenario would involve a bridgehead expansion and in order for this idea to work, I need to be able to simulate a hastily constructed bridge across a small river.

Ideally, I'd like to have it be a pontoon bridge, as this seems to be the most likely type of bridge to have been used in the situation I have in mind. Unfortunately, there is no pontoon bridge tile in CM, so I will have to make do with something else. From what I can tell, my options are:

1) Use a ford across the river simulate the pontoon bridge. This would appropriately simulate a pontoon bridge in terms of how it would link up with the riverbank (on the water, not 2 levels above it), and would also appropriately force vehicles to move slowly while crossing the river. The disadvantage here is that a ford cannot be destroyed by HE fire like a pontoon bridge could be. While it is not absolutely necessary to the scenario design, I would like to give the defender the option of trying to counterattack and get a HE weapon close enough to the bridge to destroy it.

2) Use a light bridge to simulate the pontoon bridge. While this would allow the bridge to be destroyed if subjected to any significant amount of HE fire, it would create problems in terms of getting the bridge to link up with the riverbanks in a way similar to a pontoon bridge. It would also allow units to cross the bridge much more quickly than would probably be possible on a pontoon bridge as CM models all bridges as equivalent to 'road' in terms of vehicle speed.

If any more experienced Scenario Designers have any tips or tricks for how to get around these limitation, I would appreciate the help.

I am also looking for information on Soviet Combat Engineer bridge building capabilities, specifically in 1944. I have a few pictures from the East front showing what are clearly temporary bridges, and I assume the Red Army engineers got pretty good at bridging by late war as there are an awful lot of rivers to cross between Kiev and Berlin, but I would like to nail down specifics about Soviet bridging techniques, both technical and tactical, so I can give the scenario historical context and consitency. My intent is to create a fictional scenario, but one that is historically plausible.

Thanks in advance for any helpful advice.

Cheers,

YD

[demoss]

Assuming there aren't any actual fords to worry about, you could probably just add some extra "riverbank" by making the river three levels below the surrounding ground - I believe the light bridge is two above the river, correct? There should then be a riverbank effect that would look a little odd but would probably do what you want.

[YankeeDog]

Hmmm. . . yes, that should at least solve the elevated bridge problem, though the raised banks might make the river look more like a man-made canal. If I gradually slope the banks back down away from the bridge and keep the river course curvy and irregular, it shouldn't look too bad.

Perhaps I could then put some rocky ground or whatever on the immediate approach to the bridge. While units could still move fast across the bridge itself, total crossing time would then be slower, which would simulate carefully crossing a wobbly pontoon bridge.

Thanks.

YD

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

....

Briefly, the scenario would involve a bridgehead expansion and in order for this idea to work, I need to be able to simulate a hastily constructed bridge across a small river....

Ideally, I'd like to have it be a pontoon bridge, as this seems to be the most likely type of bridge to have been used in the situation I have in mind....

1) Use a ford across the river simulate the pontoon bridge. This would appropriately simulate a pontoon bridge in terms of how it would link up with the riverbank (on the water, not 2 levels above it), and would also appropriately force vehicles to move slowly while crossing the river.

....

I am also looking for information on Soviet Combat Engineer bridge building capabilities, specifically in 1944. I have a few pictures from the East front showing what are clearly temporary bridges, and I assume the Red Army engineers got pretty good at bridging by late war as there are an awful lot of rivers to cross between Kiev and Berlin, but I would like to nail down specifics about Soviet bridging techniques, both technical and tactical, so I can give the scenario historical context and consitency. My intent is to create a fictional scenario, but one that is historically plausible.

Thanks in advance for any helpful advice.

Cheers,

YD

How's the beer coming along YankeeDog?

Anyway, another drawback with the ford option is that vehicles are more likely to bog in a ford. While that can model a pontoon bridge, if too many vehicle bog/immobilize then it could throw the scenario balance off (of course, a realistic model may be better in the long run).

As for Red Army bridging techniques.... A key for the Russian success was to establish the bridgehead first (example would be the multiple crossings the Russians created on the Dnieper in the fall of 1944). Ideally, the forces would try to capture a bridge, but if that was not possible, then the first assaults relied on infantry to establish the bridgehead.

Thereafter, the engineer and construction units would build the bridge; typically under attack from the Germans (artillery and few available aircraft).

I can get into more detail if you need. As for scenario ideas, I can provide some historical examples (of towns and maybe maps from the map site) taken out of Erickson's Road to Berlin (my current read).

You know the e-mail address....

[YankeeDog]

I was hoping you might be listening, Zitadelle!

I'm one step ahead of you. There's an email waiting for you in your home box regarding this very issue, and some others.

Life is good, but brewing is on hold for the summer due to high temperature (creates off flavors). I plan on starting up brewing operations again in a few weeks once the weather cools off.

As far as your immediate comments, I did some tests and T-34s actually only rarely bog in fords. Gotta love that low ground pressure! This a plus as far as the scenario design goes - I want the Russian player to be able to (carefully) cross T-34s, but I'd like it if heavier armor like IS series were a bit risky to try to get across the span. I could also get around this by simply not giving the Russian player any heavier vehicles, though. . .

And, yes, the scenario as planned actually takes place in that critical interval just after the combat engineers have managed to complete a bridge heavy enough to cross armor, but no armor has actually crossed yet and the bridgehead is still small and vulnerable to counterattack. The Soviet player's mission is to expand the bridgehead so that armored forces can follow on and exploit. The German player's mission is to attempt to contain the bridgehead and gain time so that reserves and heavy artillery can be brought to bear to destroy it. If I can design it correctly, it should be a great fun play.

We'll chat more soon, I'm sure. I'd love to give the scenario a more detailed historical setting if you can provide some suggestions.

Cheers,

YD

[sonar]

I've read accounts of the soviet engineers building bridges that were just below the suface of the water so they were virtually invisible,so your ford idea is at least historically,a viable option

[YankeeDog]

Interesting. . . if you recall any details about this kind of bridge, or where I might start looking to find such details, I'd love to hear more. Such a bridge could work very well in the scenario. . .

Cheers,

YD

[Emar]

Seem to recall reading that the Soviets built a few below the water bridges in order to launch a surprise attack into the Crimea in 44.

[Dook]

One other possibility would be to recruit one of the Mod Gods to create a pontoon bridge that would replace the ford tile for the scenario.

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

2) Use a light bridge to simulate the pontoon bridge. While this would allow the bridge to be destroyed if subjected to any significant amount of HE fire, it would create problems in terms of getting the bridge to link up with the riverbanks in a way similar to a pontoon bridge. It would also allow units to cross the bridge much more quickly than would probably be possible on a pontoon bridge as CM models all bridges as equivalent to 'road' in terms of vehicle speed.

Maybe a light bridge with a wire unit on it? Not sure how much that might increase bogging, though. If you put the wire lengthwise down the middle of the bridge, there might still be enough space to either side for infantry to cross quickly (as I would think they should be able to, compared to a vehicle).

[Stoffel]

If you use the light small wooden bridge than only 2 squads with demo charges will do the job of blowing it up

Its even better if you have a high power blast HE weapon near it.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Stoffel:

If you use the light small wooden bridge than only 2 squads with demo charges will do the job of blowing it up

Its even better if you have a high power blast HE weapon near it.

Yep, that's the idea. Of course, I plan on making it *?$#! hard for the defender to get a HE weapon into LOS of the bridge to blow it up.

I'm going to try to light bridge with barbed wire idea and see how it works. It won't look too great, but it sounds like it might be the closest in terms of modeling a vulnerable temporary bridge.

Cheers,

YD

[Joachim]

Have you tried to decrease the speed around the bridge instead of on the bridge?

Maybe a combination of road bends and impassable terrain (e.g. a slope).

A (forced) 45° turn when leaving the bridge is enough to slow down vehicles, thus creating a traffic jam on the bridge or forcing the player to use the bridge piecemeal (as I would expcet for a pontoon bridge).

Wet ground or stones instead of road tiles next to the bridge exis could work, too.

Gruß

Joachim

[MAUS_TD]

yankeedog,

this sounds very good but when you give the defender a big HE gun he can use it in the fist

on the first turn you can select every place on the map so if you want you can destroy the brigde before they can move over it

maus

[YankeeDog]

Well, as it turns out the scenario editor will not allow you to place wire on a bridge tile, so this is not an option.

It looks like either using a ford or creating obstacles/turns right before and after the bridge are my best options. Actually, with the editor set to 'gentle' slopes, the bridge doesn't look too ridiculously high off the water to be a pontoon bridge. Now if one of those aforementioned 'mod gods' would give us a pontoon bridge, visually anyway things would be perfect. I'm not sure it's even possible to really mod a proper looking pontoon bridge, though - it looks like the bridge tile uses the road .bmp for the bridge surface, so unless you want all the roads on the map looking like the tops of pontoon bridges, you're SOL.

Incidentally, I found a photo of a Russian 'underwater' bridge which purports to be from Bagration, so they definitely existed. It would be interesting to find some information about how they constructed these things.

As far as big HE weapons and the bridge, I do not plan of giving the defender the ability to place any heavy weapons in LOS of the bridge at setup. I haven't decided yet, but I may give the defender a shot at moving a heavy weapon into firing range of the bridge if he chooses to try. I think this creates an interesting tactical inversion - the defender can win by attacking the bridge, and the attacker has to worry about defending his line of communication across the bridge.

Cheers,

YD

[Dook]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

I'm not sure it's even possible to really mod a proper looking pontoon bridge, though - it looks like the bridge tile uses the road .bmp for the bridge surface, so unless you want all the roads on the map looking like the tops of pontoon bridges, you're SOL.

That's why I suggested modding the ford instead. Don't know which terrain type - ford or bridge with obstructed approaches - will give you the desired effects though.

[Armdchair]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

Well, as it turns out the scenario editor will not allow you to place wire on a bridge tile, so this is not an option.

If you want to place wire on a bridge simply place land tiles where you intend to place the bridge, emplace the wire, padlock it, then go back to editor and replace the land tiles with a bridge. You now have a bridge with a barbed wire obstacle.

[YankeeDog]

Ah, so that's the trick! Thanks for the tip - that's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. . .

[SgtMuhammed]

You can use the same trick to put guns in buildings.

[xerxes]

I've read accounts of the Soviet building an underwater bridge by driving T34s into the water (submerged) and then putting planks on top of them. It certainly surprised the Germans who didn't think there is was a fordable location. It's described in Raus's book "Panzers on the Eastern Front".

A shallow ford would certainly simulate that quite well.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by xerxes:

I've read accounts of the Soviet building an underwater bridge by driving T34s into the water (submerged) and then putting planks on top of them. It certainly surprised the Germans who didn't think there is was a fordable location. It's described in Raus's book "Panzers on the Eastern Front".

A shallow ford would certainly simulate that quite well.

Yep. I don't have my notes in front of me right now, but IIRC it was the 35th Guards Brigade crossing the Berezina south of Borisov on about the 28th of June during Bagration. I'm actually presently searching for more information on this crossing as one possible historical basis for the scenario, so your post is most helpful - I hadn't read Raus's account of it yet.

If I can find enough detailed information on this crossing, and it looks interesting enough, I will try to go for making the Scenario "historical", so if anyone else has read accounts of this action, I would love to know wherefrom...

Cheers,

YD