Some memories from a WWII arty vet

[Bruce Robert]

My uncle served in France, landing 7 days after D-Day, with a 105 self-propeled arty unit. He said they operated just behind the front lines, never using 7 bags, 4 at the most, usually 2 or 3, and many times found themselves in front of the enemy because the front lines were changing so rapidly. They were strafed by allied planes leaving England. By the time the plane got to the target area, it had already been overrun by the allies. They lost some vehicles to 88's, and tried to set up behing hills whenever possible. There was a fair amount of anti-battery fire, including rockets. He said the rockets fell in a consistent pattern. If you saw where the first two landed, you knew if you were in or out of the remaining salvo.

They used wp for spotting rounds only, and fire for effect was three rounds each from six guns. If this didn't do the trick, they would be ordered to fire for effect again, etc. The F. O.'s were very good at there jobs, some in piper cubs?, and the whole system worked fast and smoothly: communications, bracketing, etc.

He said they never ran out of ammo, being constantly supplied from trucks, and never had smoke rounds. He doesn't remember exactly when, but they started getting H. E. rounds with proximity fuses? that caused all shells to be airbursts at about 15 feet? These were the standard issue, and were much more devastating.

They were all trained in the use of small arms: cleaning, firing, basic tactics - and were expected to fight with these if necessary. Which occured a few times.

I don't know how much value this has regarding CM, but I thought you might find it interesting.

Thanks for the opportunity to be a part of this forum. NOTE: Use of question marks denote unsure of exact memory; " I'm 83 and it was a long time ago".

[CMplayer]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

I thought you might find it interesting.

<hr></blockquote>

Definitely. Memoires are always welcome and always on topic, imo.

[M_Gonzo]

Good Stuff.... Nothing like a first person interview.. Do you remember what unit he was with?

Michael "Gonzo" Gonzalez

[Herder]

Love these kinds of posts.

[Kirill S.]

this is going to help scenariomaking a lot

[Kirill S.]

you said they had small arms, I suppose the FOs had them too, why don't CMBO's FOs have small arms?

[PiggDogg]

Bruce Robert,

Good post. Thanks.

Cheers, Richard

[Sergei]

Kirill S., FO's didn't carry small arms because they were trained as martial arts specialists. This is modelled in CMBO, just go and assault dug-in enemy with them in your next PBEM game. You'll be surprised!

Okay, that was actually very informative, as I didn't know that you can adjust the number of bags you put into the barrel. So thank you, Bruce. Someone, please enlighten me more about this. What does 4 bags tell about range?

[Bruce Robert]

He said they were usually very close the the front line, about 1 mile, but I don't think he remembers distance versus number of bags used. Also elevation of guns would have some effect.

He told me which unit he was in but I don't remember. I will ask him again and post. I think it was 3rd armor, 1st army, but I will get better info.

Thanks

[JonS]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sergei:

Someone, please enlighten me more about this. What does 4 bags tell about range?<hr></blockquote>

I have a PEr table at home for the US 105mm, but don't have access to it right now. IIRC, Charge 4 = about 6km. Charge 7 = 11.5km.

When I get a chance, I'll check this properly.

Regards

JonS

[Bruce Robert]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by M_Gonzo:

Good Stuff.... Nothing like a first person interview.. Do you remember what unit he was with?

Michael "Gonzo" Gonzalez<hr></blockquote>

54th Field Artillery, C Company

3rd Armored,

1st Army under Omar Bradley

[JonS]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bruce Robert:

... but I don't think he remembers distance versus number of bags used. Also elevation of guns would have some effect...<hr></blockquote>

Most artillery used for indirect fire uses a variable charge system. The 25pr had 3 charge bags, each colour coded for ease of use.

Each charge can be fired at either 'high angle' (barrel elevation above 45°) or 'low angle' (barel elevation below 45°). Now-a-days low-angle is preferred because it is harder for counter battery radars to spot. It is also less susceptible to the effects of wind and variations in air density (it gains less altitude, so travels through fewer 'bands' in the atmosphere). High angle is useful if you need to clear a terrain obstacle - like an intermediate hill - or if you want plunging fire, for example onto dug-in positions.

For either high or low angle, each charge represents a range-band that can be engaged between minimum and maximum elevation (either above or below 45°). The following figures are made up (because I don't have the real figures with me right now), but they will hopefully give you the idea:

Charge 1: 0 - 2200m

Charge 2: 900 - 3800m

Charge 3: 2000 - 4900m

Charge 4: 3000 - 5200m

Charge 5: 3700 - 6500m

Charge 6: 4200 - 8000m

Charge 7: 5000 - 11500m

Usually, for any given range, there are two or three combinations of charge and elevation setting that will acheive the range desired. The battery command posts makes a decision regarding which charge to use so that the desired range is roughly in the middle of the charge used. In general, a lower charge is preferred as it stresses the gun less.

So, taking the above table, if the target was 6250m from the guns, then either Charge 5 or 6 could be used. However, since charge 5 only leaves 250m 'slack' between the target range and max range for that charge, Charge 6 would be used.

Hope this helps

JonS

[JonS]

Oh yeah - thanks for the original post Bruce. Very interesting

Welcome to the club.

Be cool

JonS

[109 Gustav]

Very good post.

Did they ever use their guns in direct fire?

Did they ever use indirect arty fire to kill tanks?

[Bruce Robert]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

Very good post.

Did they ever use their guns in direct fire?

Did they ever use indirect arty fire to kill tanks?<hr></blockquote>

They fired indirect from behind some obstacle whenever possible. But they did fire direct when contacted directly, usually by surprise, by the enemy. He said there were quite a few times they were given bad orders/directions, but not necessarily because of poor command. The front could change so rapidly that info. they based there new orders on was outdated by the time they arrived.

One time they took direct fire from Germans in a church steeple - he said the Germans loved using church steeples - and they responded with their small arms and direct fire from the 105's.

The priest ran over to them and shouted at them to stop. He said I felt bad for shooting up a church, but we didn't have any choice. Their fire ended up catching the church on fire.

As for enemy tanks, these were few and far between from his experience. As far as he knew, the 105's were used against infantry. My thought is that being only 105's howitzers, they used the 240's or 155's for enemy tanks.

It is interesting to speak to a combat vet, their perspective is one of tunnel vision, compared to a war GAMER who too often opperates with a god-like perspective. Don't get me wrong though, I overwhelmingly approve of the GAME version versus the war version.

Thanks for your interest, I will try to get more details from him when appropriate.

[Major Concussion]

Wow. I really like war stories. I could listen to them all day! Do you have any more, Bruce Roberts, that you don't mind sharing? (this also applies to anyone else). Forgive me for my ignorance, and I feel very stupid for asking this, but what were the "bags" for? I know quite a bit about WWII, but I am unfamiliar with some things. Once again, great post!

[benpark]

Great post. I wonder how much time was between the WP rounds hitting and the FFE order. It must have been unnerving to get that first warning.

I am going to dig out my grandfathers VHS tapes he made, recording his recollections of the war (he landed D+7 as well), serving as a Lieut. in a mechanized cav unit. I believe it was the 116th-The Red Horse. They saw action from St. Lo to Holland to Germany.

[JonS]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Major Concussion:

... what were the "bags" for? <hr></blockquote>

'Bags' are charge bags. Having a variety of charge bags allows flexibility in the way targets at various ranges are engaged. See post a couple up.

A complete 105mm round has 7 seperate charge bags, a brass cartridge case, the projectile (which can be HE, smoke, WP, illum, HC, etc), and the fuse (Point Detonating, Mechanical Time, Variable Time, etc). A 'round' is delivered with the case, the charge bags in the case, and the projectile (not attached to the case). Fuses are delivered seperately.

Depending on the range, target, and desired effect some particular combination of number of charge bags, projectile type, and fuse type & setting is selected prior to firing. This is then all fitted together in the brass cart case - with the fuse at the tip of the projectile - just before firing.

Regards

JonS

Primer on artillery ammunition

M1 105mm Rounds

AFAIK, M1 ammo was the type used by the US 105mm howitzers in WWII.

Edit: included a couple of links.

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: JonS ]</p>

[Bruce Robert]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by benpark:

Great post. I wonder how much time was between the WP rounds hitting and the FFE order. It must have been unnerving to get that first warning.

I am going to dig out my grandfathers VHS tapes he made, recording his recollections of the war (he landed D+7 as well), serving as a Lieut. in a mechanized cav unit. I believe it was the 116th-The Red Horse. They saw action from St. Lo to Holland to Germany.<hr></blockquote>

Time between first WP round fired and FFE was about one minute - but varied on spotter. Their guy in the piper cub was real good at finding and quickly zeroing in on the enemy.

Just found out they were given some missions for direct fire, to support some action, etc. One time his Lieutenant asked him to take his vehicle to knock out a bunker. He didn't think there was any way the 105 was going to hurt the concrete bunker. The Lieut. told him to use the hill: drive up to the crest, fire and back up, etc. My uncle's thought was that that would only work the first time, and then the 88's would be ready to kill them on their next attempt. I don't know if the german 88 was that prevalent, he talks about it a lot, or if it reflects a very healthy respect for this gun. In any case, he asked the Lieut. if he was coming with them, and that was the last time he heard anything about trying to knock out the bunker.

As to the tapes of your Grandfather, that is a "grand", I couldn't resist, idea. What about a forum for first-hand accounts from wherever we can find them. I think the single biggest problem with most warGAMES is the lack of human element. We talk about ranges and velocities and command structure, but all this still comes down to the person(s) who are out there trying to get a job done while staying alive. Perhaps some additional programing reflecting this, while maintaining the fun and playability of the GAME, would come out of this type of discussion.

Thanks

[daft]

I've got some stories my grandfather told me about his time in the Finnish army fighting the russians in the Svir area. I've got them on tape and written down. If anyone's interested, give me a shout and I'll slapp em up.

~Henric Edwards

[jwxspoon]

I love these stories. These guys made history, and we owe it to history to get as many personal accounts from them as we can.

My Grandfather on my Dad's side joined the Navy in 1908 at the age of 16, lying about his age to get in. He was able to see the world and by the time World War I rolled around he was a fireman (loading coal into boilers) on a US Destroyer. Some of his stories about the storms in the atlantic would curl your hair! Anyway, his Destroyer was torpedoed in the Atlantic. The ship went under water in less than 90 seconds from the first hit. My Grandpa knew he would die unless he got out quick, especially when the water hit the hot boilers, so he and two others squeezed out of a porthole that he said was not much more than 10 inches wide. He had broken bones and a dislocated shoulder, but he got out of there, which is more than he could say for many of the others in the Boiler Room, especially the big guys.

They were rescued after floating for two days. He was sent to England, where he boarded a Hospital ship, and travelled home to the US on the Hospital ship. Along the way the Hospital ship was torpedoed! This time they had more notice and opportunity to get out and the loss of life was minimal.

Grandpa was mustered out of the Navy, spent a few months knocking around in the oil fields of Oklahoma, and then went to the recruiter and joined the Army! He went over with Gen. Pershing and fought until the end of the war. He brought back all kinds of cool souvenirs - bayonets, an early-model luger with a very long barrel, and some other cool stuff. My Dad still has his uniform. If I can figure out how to do it, I will post pictures from 1910 when he was navy and 1918 when he was Army... anyway I thought it was a great story.

Too bad I didn't appreciate those stories when he was alive, I would've asked him many more questions.

JW

[Slapdragon]

If anyone would like to do oral histories that a historian or museum can use let me know and I will send you the "how to" paper I use with my students after Christmas.

[danvnuk]

Think I'll post this, although not sure how interesting it is to you guys.

Both my Grandfathers served in the British Army during WW2. One in the Signals (Joe), one in the Royal Engineers (Charlie). Sadly they have both passed away now, but as a child I was fascinated by the war and badgered them constantly for information.

Joe (Royal Signals) joined up with about 30 of his workmates from a London Telephone Company.He served in India, Sicily, Italy and Normandy/Germany.

He rarely talked about the War (although pestered by me!) but I remember him saying that the worse thing he saw was in Italy, His unit were stopped along a road and an Italian Farmer was ploughing a field with a tractor with children running alongside, the troops, to their horror saw yellow plastic Mines strung together(his words) wrap around the rear wheels of the farmers tractor as he was ploughing ( I presume these are daisy mines?) the troops shouted at the farmer to stop, but he couldn't hear them, when the mines Inevitably went off, they killed and maimed many of the children.

He also said that of the 30 guys from work he joined up with only 5 or so actually came home alive and unwounded, he attributed this to the Germans mining and booby trapping telegraph poles and areas related to signals as they retreated.

My other Grandfather (Charlie) served in North Africa, Sicily, Italy and Normandy and again spoke little of his experiences apart from that while taking part in the Normandy landings the Landing craft driver panicked whilst approaching the beach and turned back, (increasing their exposure to fire) whereupon my grandfathers CO, threatened to shoot him with his pistol unless he turned back to the beach.

He also was with the first troops to liberate Belsen, whilst serving as a dispatch rider towards the end of the war (after being wounded when his truck ran over a mine consequently he was quite deaf)Although he never really spoke about it, apart from the confirmation he was there.

The main feeling I got was that he loved being in the army (comparing it to being on holiday with all his mates!)

I have some interesting photos he sent home, the most interesting being of him with another guy sitting in front of a pen of captured German soldiers, leaning on the wire, they are all smiling at the camera and all look happy. It seems strange to me, because possibly days or even hours before they would probably have been trying to kill each other.

I Hope this of some interest

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: danvnuk ]</p>

[daft]

Slapdragon,

I'm very interested in that. Please send to: edwards@mail14.calypso.net

Regards

~Henric Edwards

[Slapdragon]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by daft:

Slapdragon,

I'm very interested in that. Please send to: edwards@mail14.calypso.net

Regards

~Henric Edwards<hr></blockquote>

Let me dig it out and send it. It is the type of history anyone can do, and that historians value greatly. Realizing that it is not the end all of history, and that it has it limitations, you become part of the writing of history as a gatherer of primary source information. I have done nearly a thousand and think it is about the most fun thing you can ever do.