Is the sniper abstracted?

[Amidst Void]

I watch as the sniper fires it's weapon, a long pause afterward, then another shot. Perhaps this represents actual bullets? (1 ammo=1 round)

I think I remember someone mentioning it's not abstracted.

[CMplayer]

Do you think sharpshooters went into combat with only 10 rounds of ammo?

[Pvt. Ryan]

If sharpshooters had a higher rate of fire and more ammo they would rule the battlefield, at least as far as infantry is concerned.

[CMplayer]

non sequiter

[Warphead]

There are no snipers in CMBO. Just sharpshooters and they fire a lot of shots per ammo point spent. One ammo point can kill a handfull of enemy soldiers.

[CMplayer]

semantics.

[rune]

Not semantics....different roles for different people. Sharpshooter was a squad member set in the role, a sniper attended a school and could spend hours to take a single shot.

Think saving Private Ryan...the soldier with the rifle and scope.

Rune

[CMplayer]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rune:

Think saving Private Ryan...the soldier with the rifle and scope.

<hr></blockquote>

Which one of them? I can think of two off-hand.

[Runyan99]

The one that prayed as he shot. He would be a platoon sharpshooter, not a sniper as we think of them today.

An interesting aside - the TO&E for the American rifle platoon called for 1 man to be designated as a sharpshooter, and was to be issued the Springfield with a scope. However, most guys liked the semi-auto Garand so much, that even the guy designated as the "sharpshooter" would often dump his bolt-action Springfield for a Garand the first chance he got.

[ 12-25-2001: Message edited by: Runyan99 ]</p>

[CMplayer]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Runyan99:

The one that prayed as he shot.<hr></blockquote>

Okay, the one who said get him within a mile of Hitler and he'd personally end the war with his "sniper's rifle"?

[Amidst Void]

*WARNING: RANT*

No I suppose I overlooked the fact that if it's not abstracted that it would only be 10 rounds of ammo.

The ROF is curious at best. In SPR, we can see how fast a sharpshooter can shoot. In CM the pauses in between shots differs dramatically, say 15-20 sec (depending on range) in between shots. I accept that the sharpshooter, when firing, is abstracted and he fires more bullets than I think, and one would think this clears up the whole issue, however it only raises more questions.

PROBLEM 1: Why is it that the sharpshooter's fire is so constant that he is able to fire 1 abstracted shot at the 15 sec mark and then again at around the 30, then again at 45 (roughly)? We have to realize that the actual firing of the abstracted ammo round seems to be true to the firing animation, the sharpshooter fires several bullets ONLY when we see the firing animation, and not in between, his reality seems to be subject to his abstraction, he certainly doesn't cause casualties during the reloading phase, and he only fires during the firing animation phase.

PROBLEM 2: Considering that I've never seen a sharpshooter cause a casualty during the reloading phase, I can only assume that he is ammo-less and vulnerable, never have I seen him fire back. Why is this? Why is he, so to say, "paralyzed" during reloading? It only takes a matter of seconds to chamber a round, would it be wrong of me to say that he should have a round in the chamber during this 15-20 sec reload? We certainly can't conclude that the reloading phase represents actual reloading, or perhaps you agree that it takes 15-20 sec to reload? The reason I conclude that he doens't have an armed weapon in the reload phase is because, like I said earlier, I have yet to see a casualty caused during that time.

Now I'm not critisizing (did I spell that right?), I just don't get how some of these supposed abstractions work.

[Mattias]

CMplayer,

A sniper is a soldier that has received special, lengthy, training in stealth and the art of long range killing. He will operate independently of regular units and only rely on his own skill and possibly the support of one or two backups protecting him.

A sharpshooter is a soldier that has been issued a precision weapon, often a finely machined and scoped version of the standard issue rifle (in your case an AK 5 with scope and sniper shoulder stock). He will have special training in using the added capabilities of his weapon but he will still be part of a regular unit and he will accomplish his mission within the framework of a squad, platoon etc.

Some sharpshooters will have better equipment, some snipers less sophisticated but the dividing line is really drawn at what level of independence they operate.

It is not just a matter of semantics.

M.

[Echo]

So in theory he would fight hand to hand, lob grenades when the situation dictated, and fire on an immediate, deadly threat that is less than 100 yds away. [sharpshooter]

Yet it isn't so in the game, because they are coded to behave as snipers (wont fire at something under 100yds, and stand stupified and die in hand to hand, abstracted shots (how many rounds did that "sharpshooter" get off in SPR? Alot more than 10), etc...). Tank shots (single shot calculations) arent abstracted, why is a single rifle? And still yet, they don't really behave as a sniper either.

They arent either in my opinion. They're FUBAR.

[Mattias]

The fact that the CM sniper/sharpshooter version does not fall squarely into either category was noted years ago. For me the unit works very well as it is in CM, even if it is not an exact replica of a real life unit. To call it FUBAR is simply uncalled for.

Personally I tend to use them very much as a kind of go between unit too, independently of the normal infantry, yet directly in support of my offensive movements.

M.

[ 12-25-2001: Message edited by: Mattias ]</p>

[Amidst_Void]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mattias:

"FOBAR"

[ 12-25-2001: Message edited by: Mattias ]<hr></blockquote>

Look up.

[Amidst_Void]

Oh damnit, you edited it. :mad:

[Col Deadmarsh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Amidst Void:

*WARNING: RANT*

No I suppose I overlooked the fact that if it's not abstracted that it would only be 10 rounds of ammo.

The ROF is curious at best. In SPR, we can see how fast a sharpshooter can shoot. In CM the pauses in between shots differs dramatically, say 15-20 sec (depending on range) in between shots. I accept that the sharpshooter, when firing, is abstracted and he fires more bullets than I think, and one would think this clears up the whole issue, however it only raises more questions.

PROBLEM 1: Why is it that the sharpshooter's fire is so constant that he is able to fire 1 abstracted shot at the 15 sec mark and then again at around the 30, then again at 45 (roughly)? We have to realize that the actual firing of the abstracted ammo round seems to be true to the firing animation, the sharpshooter fires several bullets ONLY when we see the firing animation, and not in between, his reality seems to be subject to his abstraction, he certainly doesn't cause casualties during the reloading phase, and he only fires during the firing animation phase.

PROBLEM 2: Considering that I've never seen a sharpshooter cause a casualty during the reloading phase, I can only assume that he is ammo-less and vulnerable, never have I seen him fire back. Why is this? Why is he, so to say, "paralyzed" during reloading? It only takes a matter of seconds to chamber a round, would it be wrong of me to say that he should have a round in the chamber during this 15-20 sec reload? We certainly can't conclude that the reloading phase represents actual reloading, or perhaps you agree that it takes 15-20 sec to reload? The reason I conclude that he doens't have an armed weapon in the reload phase is because, like I said earlier, I have yet to see a casualty caused during that time.

Now I'm not critisizing (did I spell that right?), I just don't get how some of these supposed abstractions work.<hr></blockquote>

Excellent points. This goes back to the mg teams who should be able to increase fire when an enemy squad is charging them. Hell, why can't this be applied to squads too? Why is there such a long laspse time between firing. Why can't BTS double the firing rate of everything when the enemy is within a certain range and closing? It always makes me mad when enemy squads charge me and my men only get off one round of shots before it goes hand to hand.

I have to say though, the sharpshooter especially needs to have a higher ROF. I can't understand why this wasn't simulated.

[Vanir Ausf B]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

I have to say though, the sharpshooter especially needs to have a higher ROF. I can't understand why this wasn't simulated.<hr></blockquote>

There is no reason why the sharpshooter should have a higher ROF than an infantry squad. Sharpshooters shot more accurately, not faster.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Echo:

So in theory he would fight hand to hand, lob grenades when the situation dictated, and fire on an immediate, deadly threat that is less than 100 yds away.<hr></blockquote>

No.

Sharpshooters are not Rambo. The most important thing for them is to stay undetected. They will fire on targets under 100m if they are detected and fired at, but otherwise they will try to stay alive. This is not FUBAR, this is smart.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Tank shots (single shot calculations) arent abstracted, why is a single rifle?<hr></blockquote>

They are a type of infantry unit, so the game engine has to abstract their shots like all other infantry units. As has been pointed out 1000 times on this board before, 1 "shot" from a sharpshooter represents several shots in real life. I have seen a sharpshooter in CM hit 3 men in a running squad with 1 "shot". How's that for ROF?

[ 12-25-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]</p>

[Patgod]

10 rounds + high ROF = very little fire time. if it were as high as you(and i) would like it then we would be complaining from the other end "why the hell does this thing waste all its ammo in 1 turn on a worthless mmg? this thing is FUBAR"

[Amidst Void]

Patgod, I never suggested a ROF speed increase. I need to know how this sharpshooter guy is abstracted because the way I added it up above, it's not acceptable. I havent' purchased a sharpshooter in 5 months just because the above issue. Why doesn't CM model actual bullets fired such as the AFV's? This might be a solution, if I haven't overlooked anything.

[Col Deadmarsh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Patgod:

10 rounds + high ROF = very little fire time. if it were as high as you(and i) would like it then we would be complaining from the other end "why the hell does this thing waste all its ammo in 1 turn on a worthless mmg? this thing is FUBAR"<hr></blockquote>

A sharpshooter doesn't go into battle with only 10 rounds. I think we've established this.

Vanir, I'll give you the fact that sharpshooters shouldn't have a higher rate of fire than infantry, but as is right now they have a slower rate of fire, don't they? It's been my experience that they fire once every 15 seconds or so...at least at tank commanders.

My concern is that you can rush a small half squad at them from 200 meters away and he would only kill one of the men. But...if you say you've seen one kill 3 with "one turn of firing", I'll believe you.

[Kingfish]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Vanir, I'll give you the fact that sharpshooters shouldn't have a higher rate of fire than infantry, but as is right now they have a slower rate of fire, don't they? It's been my experience that they fire once every 15 seconds or so...at least at tank commanders.

My concern is that you can rush a small half squad at them from 200 meters away and he would only kill one of the men. But...if you say you've seen one kill 3 with "one turn of firing", I'll believe you.<hr></blockquote>

In order for a Sharpshooter to perform (and survive) as a sharpshooter he must be coded with an extra dose of stealth. This attribute governs his behavior on the battlefield regardless of the situation he is faced with. What you end up with is a unit that will act the same way, whether it's picking off the heads of TCs at 600 meters or watching an enemy squad kick in the door of the house he's hiding in.

Take away the stealth and you'll get a more aggressive shooter for sure, but he'll last as long as a one man rifle squad. Then this board will be inundated with "Why does my sharpshooter die so quickly?", "C'mon, 20 points for a guy with a rifle, WTF is up with that" or "Shouldn't Sharpshooters be more stealthy?" posts.

[Vanir Ausf B]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Vanir, I'll give you the fact that sharpshooters shouldn't have a higher rate of fire than infantry, but as is right now they have a slower rate of fire, don't they? It's been my experience that they fire once every 15 seconds or so...at least at tank commanders.<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, they do fire slower. I'm not sure why that is exactly. I suspect it has something to do with them having only 10 "shots". They could run out of ammo very quickly if they fired faster. In my expirience it is rare that I want a shartshooter to fire more than once per turn at a specific target, so it usually works out well.

I think all units should be able to fire faster at units that are charging at them. This already is modeled to some degree in CMBO, but will be better in CMBB, at least for MGs; I don't know about other unit types.

[Patgod]

i should have said "10 firing abstractions" i know a sharpshooter does not have 10 rifle rounds. however he does get 10 "shots" in CM. increase the ROF of those as a unit closes and his ammo disapears real quick. sorry for the confusion

[CMplayer]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mattias:

A sniper is a soldier that has received special, lengthy, training in stealth and the art of long range killing. He will operate independently of regular units and only rely on his own skill and possibly the support of one or two backups protecting him.

<hr></blockquote>

Right, but this is exactly how I usually use my sharpshooters in CM. They operate on their own, far away from any platoon, and exploit their special stealth bonuses to infiltrate and go after special targets like TCs and weapons crews. So I employ them like specially attached, or even completely independently operating snipers.