AA Guns

[Swift]

I find the German 20mm and the American (Swedish?) 40mm AA gun very effective on the battlefield. They can destroy light armour at high speed and good accuracy (the 40mm is perfect for destroying buildings to).

My question is if they were used in this way (placed in or close to the frontlines) during WW2 or if they are in the game so simulate breakthroughs and such?

[Herr Kruger]

In a book I recently got "German Campaigns of World War Two" one of the pictures features a German 20 mm AA gun and the caption states that such weapons were employed in such a way.

[Panzer Leader]

SUre they were, all the time. The 88 was developed as an AA weapon, and it proved to be one of the best AT weapons of the war.

The 20mm was developed as an AA weapon, and I think there's a good reason that the Germans put that 20mm on armoured cars, HTs and even tanks. It was a great weapon versus infantry, non and light armoured vehicles.

A lot of people clamor that the AA weapons in this game are being used out of scope, that there are too many of them, but I think they were more common than simple TO&Es would lead you to believe. That said they were common and they DEFINITELY were used against ground units, whenever they need arose.

Besides the fact that units had them, would you use a high-powered gun that fired rapid exploding shells at an oncoming enemy if you had one available? You bet! And they did...

[Redwolf]

That is a mixed issue.

Yes, as in CMBO the multiple-rounds flak guns were very effective in real life when used against soft targets and armour they could penetrate.

No, it is not realistic to have them in many scenarios, because in real life they were simply not given to frontline duty, not even by the western allies who generally didn't see many German planes. Also, they were extreme resource-hogs for their ammo and big crews, the stuff is just expensive to fire.

The 88 is not a multiple-round flak cannon, it is a single-shot gun, as is the 128mm

[Andreas]

Commonwealth LAA regiments (one per infantry division) were handed ground sights during the campaign in France (one reference I have for 49th Infantry Division puts it at the time of the taking of Le Havre). Later-on, many of them were disbanded, to use the manpower thus freed as infantry replacements.

The 40mm were also used in so-called Pepperpot fire plans (as were Vickers in indirect fire mode, and 3.7" AA guns, and even AT guns). There were problems with their barrels not being able to take the strain though. 40mm AA was also used to fire tracer to indicate the route during stage one of Totalize, and for the RHLI during the attack on Woensdrecht.

They also had an AA role, engaging V-1 bombs on their way to Antwerp, and protecting rear-areas against German night-raiders (which were not that uncommon). Bottomline of that to me would be that they were quite busy thank you very much, without having to hang about in the MLR shooting up German infantry (something for which I have seen no references). This will most likely have happened at some point, but I somehow doubt it happened on the scale the Germans did it.

Maybe Michael or Simon can shed some more light here.

[Herr Kruger]

The caption from that book reads this : "A four-barrel 20-mm Flak gun manned by the Luftwaffe in action against enemy infantry. With ever-increasing Allied threats from the air and ground the Germans were compelled to use all available weapons in dual roles."

In the picture, the gun is clearly pointed at almost level to the ground and firing.

[Tanaka]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redwolf:

[QB]

...No, it is not realistic to have them in many scenarios, because in real life they were simply not given to frontline duty, not even by the western allies who generally didn't see many German planes. Also, they were extreme resource-hogs for their ammo and big crews, the stuff is just expensive to fire....

[QB]<hr></blockquote>

RedWolf, please, go to this site: http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/index.html

Read, for instance, OB of the 16th LW Div for its AT Coy... or yet, if you don't like LW Div, you can have look on the 91st Inf Div, III./Art.Rgt. 177

In this site there are more then 30 OBs for German Div that took part in the Normandy fight... Have a good look on them, for any one with some interest in post D-day fight its a very good site.

Also recomend you to give a look on the site sorces, as any one should do when "informing" him self....

Then, please, come back and coment your quoted words

[Louie the Toad]

Are we always fighting on the front lines? What about penetrations and flanking movements. And as the dates of QB choices for instance get futher into the war, ie. mid to late 44 and early 45, chances are that the allies are running into more and more AAA units as the perimeter shrinks for the Germans.

Besides if the allies have air superiority then wouldnt the Germans move AAA units further forward to offer some protection from air attacks?

surface to air Toad

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andreas:

Commonwealth LAA regiments (one per infantry division) were handed ground sights during the campaign in France (one reference I have for 49th Infantry Division puts it at the time of the taking of Le Havre). Later-on, many of them were disbanded, to use the manpower thus freed as infantry replacements.

<hr></blockquote>

Or as in the case of the 6 Airborne Division, its Lt.AA Battery was reformed as an AT Battery.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

The 40mm were also used in so-called Pepperpot fire plans (as were Vickers in indirect fire mode, and 3.7" AA guns, and even AT guns). There were problems with their barrels not being able to take the strain though. 40mm AA was also used to fire tracer to indicate the route during stage one of Totalize, and for the RHLI during the attack on Woensdrecht.

<hr></blockquote>

I was under the impression that they were used fairly commonly for this, in the whole series of operations in Normandy after TOTALISE, according to Blackburn.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

They also had an AA role, engaging V-1 bombs on their way to Antwerp, and protecting rear-areas against German night-raiders (which were not that uncommon). Bottomline of that to me would be that they were quite busy thank you very much, without having to hang about in the MLR shooting up German infantry (something for which I have seen no references). This will most likely have happened at some point, but I somehow doubt it happened on the scale the Germans did it.

Maybe Michael or Simon can shed some more light here.<hr></blockquote>

I'm aware of them being utilised earlier in the war, when the British/Commonwealth were much more on the defensive but not during the later war period. Given that the British/Commmonwealth tended to be on the offensive, I'd suggest knowing their unwillingness to utilise artillery in other roles than what it was designated, except in absolute extremise, it would have been as you note, an unusual event.

The Germans tended to be more aggressive with all arms, and on the defensive so the likelihood of Lt.AA weapons being utilised in a ground role are more likely. I'm not sure if Lt.AA BTW came under Artillery or the infantry/armour arms branch of the unit that they were attached to, which would make a considerable difference in how they were utilised.

The inappropriate use of a great many weapons by "gamey" players is something one has to be careful about.

[Andreas]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Brian:

I was under the impression that they were used fairly commonly for this, in the whole series of operations in Normandy after TOTALISE, according to Blackburn.<hr></blockquote>

Not sure if you are talking about Pepperpots or use to fire tracer - the former I think were only invented a bit later, but I am quite unsure about dates. I would have put it about the time of the Rhineland battles - interesting and apparently very effective, something like the artilleryman's version of the Mad Minute

Tracer usage I only had those two references off the top of my head, not sure if I could dig out more. I would expect them to be used fairly commonly for that though, once Simonds had come up with the idea.

Good point about the offensive/defensive situation. I guess that the real value of these guns comes out when firing from a prepared position, so they would be more valuable in the defense than in the offense.

Do you know if the re-designated LAA regiment was given different guns?

[ParaBellum]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Swift:

My question is if they were used in this way (placed in or close to the frontlines) during WW2 or if they are in the game so simulate breakthroughs and such?<hr></blockquote>

In "It never snows in September" by R. Kershaw which deals with the Arnheim operation in '44 from the german point of view he gives many examples of 20mm Flak used against the allies with devastating effect.

So yes, 20mm Flak were used in a ground defense role in WW2, but IMO not that much as certain CM players use it.

[Olle Petersson]

I think this issue should be addressed on a gun-by-gun basis.

Most 20mm guns in all nations were developed and designed for a dual AA/AT role in the 30ies.

They seem to have been deployed either to both dedicated AA and AT units, or in a combined AT/AA company/battalion.

The German quad (and triple) 20mm versions were, AFAIK, designed more with a pure AA role in mind.

The Bofors 40mm gun, as well as all larger calibre AA guns, had undercarriages optimised for AA use, but with the ability to direct fire at ground targets.

It seems like the Germans generally had a more open mind towards using AA assets in forward direct fire positions, even when advancing.

The Brits seems to have thought of the direct fire capability more as a means of emergency self protection for the gun crew, than something that could be utilised more offensively. (At least for their 3.7" AA guns.)

It also took quite a while before the US used their heavy AA in a deliberate AT role.

Cheers

Olle

[c3k]

Gents,

Something which may have given the Germans a much greater density of FlaK guns on a given frontage, when compared to Allied AAA usage, were the independent FlaK organizations. The Germans deployed FlaK regiments and Corps to provide protection to Army units. These units GREATLY increased the defensive ability of many army units .

The availability of these dedicated (Luftwaffe) ground defense units explains why most German Army/SS units had relatively little inherent FlaK protection. It was assumed they'd operate under the umbrella of a Luftwaffe provided FlaK unit.

In the Normandy area there were a lot of such units. They also had their own ammo dumps, etc.

Okay, anyone want to add something about these?

Ken

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andreas:

Not sure if you are talking about Pepperpots or use to fire tracer - the former I think were only invented a bit later, but I am quite unsure about dates. I would have put it about the time of the Rhineland battles - interesting and apparently very effective, something like the artilleryman's version of the Mad Minute

<hr></blockquote>

I was referring more to tracer. The Pepperpots as far as I'm aware first appeared (albeit not under that name) with the first of the "Collosal Cracks" as Monty termed them, with GOODWARD. They didn't earn the "pepperpot" name until a bit later, though, I believe.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

Tracer usage I only had those two references off the top of my head, not sure if I could dig out more. I would expect them to be used fairly commonly for that though, once Simonds had come up with the idea.

<hr></blockquote>

Simonds didn't invent it. It was developed during WWI, when MMG's were used to fire trace along the flanks of an advance (something I'd personally only be willing to trust a Vickers with). I'm pretty sure that knowledge was still around earlier on in WWII. I remember reading about it being used in a night attack in the Western Desert. Simonds combined it with other weapons/methods, thats all.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

Good point about the offensive/defensive situation. I guess that the real value of these guns comes out when firing from a prepared position, so they would be more valuable in the defense than in the offense.

<hr></blockquote>

Against that should be measured though, the relative inexperience of German FlaK crews in ground combat as the Allies advanced into Germany. I've read several accounts now of where British tank crews encountered FlaK units, even armed up with the normally deadly 88mm, whom either panicked at the sight of the tanks or at best were armed only with HE rounds for their guns - which were usually mounted in fixed sites, surrounding cities/industrial areas.

While the Luftwaffe's FlaK units were considered an corps de'elite early in the war, by war's end, I'm sure they'd been recieving the scrapings for some time and it appears they more than likely had recieved little or no training in firing their guns over open sights.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

Do you know if the re-designated LAA regiment was given different guns?<hr></blockquote>

Yes. They were given the usual airborne mix of 6 lb and 17 lb guns. I'm presently preparing a website on British airborne for CM. It will be in there.

[Andreas]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Brian:

Yes. They were given the usual airborne mix of 6 lb and 17 lb guns. I'm presently preparing a website on British airborne for CM. It will be in there.<hr></blockquote>

Thanks, something to look forward to.

Regarding the effectiveness of late-war German AA. The ones in fixed sites were 'manned' by woman, and 16-year olds to quite some extent. I am not surprised about experiences of them not having the stomach to fight it out.

[Tanaka]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andreas:

...'manned' by woman, and 16-year olds to quite some extent...

<hr></blockquote>

AKA "Baby Krauts"

[Iron Chef Sakai]

20mm were commonly used against ground targets, as was the 88.

[michael]

The Cdn 4th Armoured in Normandy was equipped with the Crusader AA which was used often on the front lines. During the closing of the Falaise Gap, they were used as a muscular resupply vehicle as well as direct fire. Here's Major Glen MacDougall, South Alberta Reg't:

"Our tanks had a field, day, particularily the Crusaders with the Oerlikons. This is a wicked weapon firing some 450 rpm of 20mm HE with a graze fuse, so that if it touches a twig it will explode and blow a man's arm off".

[Andreas]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by michael:

The Cdn 4th Armoured in Normandy was equipped with the Crusader AA which was used often on the front lines. During the closing of the Falaise Gap, they were used as a muscular resupply vehicle as well as direct fire. <hr></blockquote>

They were not the only ones - TO& strength was six of these to the regimental HQ of the armoured reconnaissance regiment in 4th Canadian (SAR), and I would assume that that was standard. Although the SAR seems to have had seven present, one overstrength. The reference from the St. Lambert battle is the only one I found for their use in ground combat though. Having said that, I have also not seen a lot of references for German SP AA in the ground role. Then again, I am reading more about the Commonwealth. If anyone has more references for Crusader AA tanks in ground combat, I'd be interested to know.

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andreas:

They were not the only ones - TO& strength was six of these to the regimental HQ of the armoured reconnaissance regiment in 4th Canadian (SAR), and I would assume that that was standard. Although the SAR seems to have had seven present, one overstrength. The reference from the St. Lambert battle is the only one I found for their use in ground combat though. Having said that, I have also not seen a lot of references for German SP AA in the ground role. Then again, I am reading more about the Commonwealth. If anyone has more references for Crusader AA tanks in ground combat, I'd be interested to know.<hr></blockquote>

I was under the impression that in fact most of the Crusader AA tanks had been replaced just before D-Day with Cromwell AA tanks, mounting essentially the same turret. While most of the questions WRT reliability in the Crusader had been worked out by 1944, it was felt that commonality of spare parts would be better served with the AA troops utilising the same hulls as the gun tanks.

I have one obscure reference, from an early edition of AFV News which suggests that in addition to the better known twin 20mm armed tanks, the triple, open turreted vehicle was also used in Normandy. This is usually seen in pictures with the caption, "utilised for training only". However, the article suggests that on the basis of the photograph evidence, one or more troops of the triple Polsten cannon armed Crusader might have seen active service.

[newlife]

The 40mm was also used extensively for Anit-submarine warfare. There is a film showing this usage near Los Angelas versus a Japanese submarine. The submarine was successfully sunk as eyewitnesses reported "it was definately going down".

[newlife]

The interesting part of this account was how easy the 40mm was to use in this service. The gun credited with the sinking was actually operated by a civilian with next to no knowledge of how to fire the gun. His incomplete knowledge of how to fire the gun did lead to the loss of his home however.

[newlife]

For those who wish so see the film I mentioned above, follow the link below.

iFilm

[CMplayer]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by newlife:

His incomplete knowledge of how to fire the gun did lead to the loss of his home however.<hr></blockquote>

What was he doing? Firing it from his Malibu backyard?

[Swift]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by newlife:

The 40mm was also used extensively for Anit-submarine warfare.<hr></blockquote>

I hope you mean against a surfaced sub...?