Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Kingfish

RD / B & T tourney thread (spoiler)

Recommended Posts

**********SPOILER*************

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

This thread contains spoiler info for the Rugged Defense / Boots and Tracks tourney scenarios.

Gents,

Please use this thread to freely discuss the first round scenario, as well as to offer suggestions on what you would like to see (or not see) in upcoming scenarios.

Thank you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a 51%-49% Draw as Allied and 56%-44% Minor Victory as Axis.

The scenario is IMHO well balanced (see my scores) if played correctly so I'd like to hear especially from those who have lost/won with 10-20% vs 80~90%.

The Russian side seems to perform better with a wait and see attitude and carefully using mortars and arty profiting from those occasional spots in the first phase of the battle. Early exposure would be detrimental.

Axis has to maneuver in order to strike simultaneously and advance as much as possible under cover.

So far nothing new. As Axis I decided to ensure my left and central areas which I have been able to capture and hold after the first 15-18 minutes. Russian reserves from that side never made to get into action. Stopped and or KOed on the spot. My right flank which I planned to attack from teh front and from the left after having assured the central area encountered the regular SNAFUs. 5 tanks lost in a matter of minutes (3 or 4) from the T34 and combined ant well placed tank guns.

That pretty much halted the final phase of the plan and I regrouped. (Axis 56%- Allied 44%)

As Allied nothing much to report as action: I dug, I waited, I fought. my right flank (as Russian) contented one flag and maintained the control of the leftmost one. My T34 was able to eliminate the Fascists tanks in the area while troops kept on their toes the Germans finally repelling all their effort to even get close.

The left flank suffered the most enduring the heavier attack: my German opponent concentrated most fo his armor on the central (flag contended, changed hand few times, then finally in German control) and the right (for him) flank. My green units there held valiantly and the flag remaiend contented. Both battles lasted till turn 29 (I believe :rolleyes: )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd really like to hear from anybody who pulled out a tactical victory or better as the Russians. It looks darn hard to me assuming a competent and reasonably aggressive German player. Take the Germans' dramatic armor superiority and combine with the lack of large covered areas, and there's just nowhere to hide. Even if the T-34s survive, they don't have enough AP ammo to do it all themselves, and the only other anti-armor asset of note is the 76 field piece - which seems to last for about two shots. Sure, it's POSSIBLE to get kills with the T-26s (I got a Pz IV with one and an overconfident StuG with another), but it's darn difficult.

Now, if the Germans are too timid, you can reinforce the objectives before they get there which can be ugly (especially if the pioneers get to the ones on the left - I got the Flamingo that way). I wasn't so lucky (though I feel my opponent did advance a little slowly) and I was very happy with my draw.

Failing German timidity or outright incompetence, though, what can the Russians do?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The scenario was fun and well-balanced for E-MAIL but definitely not for a double-blind tournament. WHY???

The scenario notes made no mention of reinforcements and the heavy use of reinforcements in this scenario gave an unintended bonus to the players who played more quickly.

Example, by the time I had gotten to turn 5 of one of my games, my opponent had already finished his game against his other opponent (they must've played TCP/IP) ...and so he knew there were heavy reinforcements coming in and roughly when and where they would appear. I didn't. Hence unfair advantage to him.

Not PO'ed or anything, but I would have thought it obvious that using this sceanrio in a tourny was a bad idea. Put all the pieces on the board on turn 1 so the set-up plays a larger role. That's where the most skillful players shine (...not saying I am one of those).

[ February 02, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Peterk ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I split my two games, gaining a total of 99 points. The Axis was victorious in both. I sense this wasn't atypical.

I felt that the terrain was a bit flat, depriving the Soviets of reverse-slope possibilities for the infantry and hull down niches for their- mostly brittle- armor. As far as the reinforcements are concerned- they should have been spelled out more or less explicity in the briefing. This would have avoided the unpleasant and somewhat gamey surprises. The map possessed a gneneric fnctionality.

I had a good time, however. Thanks to all!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Peterk about reinforcements and playing the scenario double blind. My game as the russians was well into the end game before my game as the Germans had made serious contact.

As the Russians I lost 56 to 44 after giving Gonzo a scare with the t-34's, they died much more easily than either of us expected. I read Loza's "Fighting for the Soviet Motherland" after I had lost them and now know why they were not as good as we had expected with the brittle turret armor.

The Russian game had Gonzo breaking my left flank and rolling up the line. I did give him some trouble with the arty and mortars and my t-26's killed a couple of MkIV's and the 76 mm got another. The t-26's also got a PZ Jag I, an AC and a half-track. The left flank t-34 got two MkIV's and a Stug. Right flank t-34 got zip.

One bright spot was a forward ambush by the SMG armed half squads of one platoon with Plt leader & flamethrower. They moved out of the Russian setup zone and set up 40 meter covered arcs about 25 meters inside a tree line. A reinforcement German Plt advanced right into it and only 4 or five Germans routed away for the loss of 2 men.

As the Germans I won 81 to 19. I was probably to cautious. The Ampulomet which did nothing for me as the Russkie killed two MkIV's and the flame PzII. My infantry suffered low casualties with only one squad eliminated by a probably fanatical Russian squad late in the game when I stumbled across it. another hard core Russian squad had drawn most of the ammo from another German platoon, but they were fine for holding a Flag.

The Air Gods must hate me. Gonzo's flyboy killed 3 t-26's but my flyboy's great contribution was a track hit on a dead t-34.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by demoss:

I'd really like to hear from anybody who pulled out a tactical victory or better as the Russians. It looks darn hard to me assuming a competent and reasonably aggressive German player. Take the Germans' dramatic armor superiority and combine with the lack of large covered areas, and there's just nowhere to hide. Even if the T-34s survive, they don't have enough AP ammo to do it all themselves, and the only other anti-armor asset of note is the 76 field piece - which seems to last for about two shots. Sure, it's POSSIBLE to get kills with the T-26s (I got a Pz IV with one and an overconfident StuG with another), but it's darn difficult.

Now, if the Germans are too timid, you can reinforce the objectives before they get there which can be ugly (especially if the pioneers get to the ones on the left - I got the Flamingo that way). I wasn't so lucky (though I feel my opponent did advance a little slowly) and I was very happy with my draw.

Failing German timidity or outright incompetence, though, what can the Russians do?

What worked for me was to only defend the left and center VLs. The forces provided did not seem to me to be enough to defend the whole map. I wasn't aware of the Russian reinforcements until someone mentioned them on this forum (they were complaining that their reinforcements were hit by arty on the turn they appeared).

There were a lot more Russian AT assets than you listed: a 45mm AT gun, 45mm pillbox, and three Ampulomets. I was able to knock out two Stugs and an AC with the ampuloments (the ampulomets seem to benefit from combat bonus HQs). The 45mm AT guns can't do much against the frontal armor of a Stug, but they knocked out a PZ IV, a Panzerjager and an AC for me.

The 76mm was placed in the rear center of the map with narrow fire lanes and attached to a double moral bonus HQ. The moral bonus is important: it keeps the gun from being easily pinned when it is shot at. Once an AT gun is pinned it is usually dead. Still, the 76mm AT gun did amazingly well, killing two Pz IVs, two Stugs, the flamepanzer, and an HT. The Stugs died when three of them advanced abreast (buttoned) on the 76mm. Due to smoke and trees, they came into view of the gun one at a time at less than 300m range. With five shots, the 76mm killed two and gun-damaged the third. I think the Stugs only got off two or three shots. Since a gun like the 76mm rotates very slowly, it is a good idea to use the cover-arc (armor) to point the gun in the direction you anticipate the next threat coming from. I was also lucky that only one German 50mm mortar had a clear view of the 76. It was easy to spoil the mortar's accuracy with MG fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys,

Round one results are here Round 1 results

Here is a summary for your information:

Total number of battles completed = 112

Axis attacker wins = 45

Russian defender wins = 42

Draw = 25

Total percentage points scored for Axis = 5,811

Total percentage points scored for Allies = 5,395

Average score = Axis 51.8% - 48.2% Allied

CDIC

[ February 06, 2003, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: Captitalistdoginchina ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both of my games were draw, with soviets little ahead. As axis got 48% and as soviets 53%.

For a single play, or against person if other haven't played game from other side, scenario was quite good.

But for tournament play where other player possibly has played same scenario from other side there are couple problems:

1) reinforcements arriving to positions where they are going to die before they have time to move

2) reinforcements arriving to places where they have extremely limited advance possibilities (if they survive that long)

And don't know if it was just me or why I had extremely hard time to get my reinforcements to combat area, just barely got there as soviets and as germans my right flank attack didn't get there at all. Of course as germans my right flank reinforcements didn't head straight to battle so they used couple extra turns..

In my opinion map should have been longer to soviet rear area and reinforcements would have been placed there and then player would have had little more opinion to where to move them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm afraid I have to echo the main complaint voiced so far: The reinforcements came as a complete suprise to me --- and not necessarily a pleasant one.

As the Sovs, if I had expected reinforcements (especially armor) I would have disposed my forces in a completely different manner. I decided to focus most of my defense on the village to the right, with just token defense on the far left, and none in the center.

In the event, I made the correct decision, as my opponent pushed most of his forces against my right, with the remainder (mostly his reinforcements) coming at my left, and almost nothing up the middle.

I had the 76mm set up in a clump of trees by the graveyard, and it lasted for quite some time (and took out 4 German AFV's) before succumbing. Strangely enough, it was my 82mm mortars that did quite a bit of AT damage, killing his AC's, PzJ1's, and immobilizing a PzIV --- the ampulomets were useless. My 45mm bunker went down after about two shots, though --- and my T26's arrived just in time to be bombed into non-existence by the Luftwaffe. It was the T34's that turned the tide though, and my infantry reinforcements I put to good use in the center and on the right, where they stopped the German probe cold. We ended up 50% / 50%, can't get much closer than that.

Can't say about the German side, as my opponent surrendered around turn 5, before I even made contact.

But I gotta tell ya, this playing the same scenario from both sides seems just a bit, ermmm, unfair. I mean, by the time I finished my first game I knew what to expect in the way of forces for the second (since my opponent was so slow in sending turns) --- and it definitely would have effected how I played as the Germans knowing where and when those Sov tanks show up.

EDIT: It occurs to me that I haven't actually said what I thought about the scenario itself (sorry CDIC). Planning and execution aside (which is all up to the player anyway), I thought it was well designed for a head-to-head match-up. The German player has to move out if he want's to make any gains before the Sov reinforcements show up, and the Sov player get's just enough to stem the Fascist tide and maybe (maybe) turn it, if he's been lucky. As always, airpower is a big gamble, but the Attacker in CMBB needs all the assets he can get. The terrain lends itself to some nice fire-lanes and key-holing for the defenders, while the attackers have more than enough cover to bring infantry within striking range.

I give it smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif out of five.

[ February 07, 2003, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: von Lucke ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have planned my attack a bit different as Germans knowing I had reinforcements. Realisticly as a field commander, I would have waited the 10 minutes for all of my units to arrive before commiting to the attack anyway, so as to better coordinate it. Overwhelming guns/manpower is the name of the game, not commiting small units piece-meal.

Good scenario, but all the German units should have started on the map. Cya in round 2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

> As the Sovs, if I had expected reinforcements

> (especially armor) I would have disposed my

> forces in a completely different manner. I

Bingo!

I was assuming Russians would get _no_ tanks whatsoever and so set up my 2 little AA guns out in no-mans land in truly desperate fashion hoping for the unlikely flank hit on carelessly advancing armor.

Those guys should really have been far back waiting to pounce on infantry.

Even the briefing mentionning that armor was 10-minutes to the rear and might come to help would have resulted in me making a much more reasonable set-up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There were a lot more Russian AT assets than you listed: a 45mm AT gun, 45mm pillbox, and three Ampulomets.
I said no other AT assets of note. I'm aware, of course, of those other toys. ;)

My 45 pillbox was set up on the left, in between the objectives (in cover), waiting for a flank shot. It got spotted by a StuG and destroyed faster than you can say zdrastvuyte. My 45 AT was about to be overrun on the right, so turned and started shooting (it at least provided a little distraction while my reinforcements tried to advance into position). The ampulomets, well, all they did in both my games combined was immobilize a couple Pz IVs and knock out a PSW 222 (woo!).

I didn't mind the reinforcements, personally. The briefing on the Russian side made it plenty clear that we had no reason to KNOW whether they'd be coming or not. I do think the Germans should have known about their own reinforcements, though. It would also have been better if there wasn't the time-mismatch problem that some people had - it sounds like that's where the biggest problems came from.

Funny thing is, after seeing the starting forces, my first thought was that this looked like a darn good scenario with great balance. After the German reinforcements started to roll in, I wondered. Then when the Russian reinforcements arrived, I again thought it looked darn good. I now know some of the things I missed - I really liked the (gamey, yes, but inspired) ploy of turning the German player's knowledge of setup areas against him by advancing out of them!

I'm also in agreement with those who say the map should be extended toward the Russian rear to give the reinforcements a chance to deploy realistically rather than coming under fire as soon as they pop up.

[ February 03, 2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: demoss ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my 2-games I had a 68 win as Axis and 57 win as Russian. My 1st impression was that the Russian player is a dead duck and as the German forces kept pouring in I wondered how an Allied player could win at all. My strategy as the Russian was to set up ambush zones behind the village in the right edge forest. Sacrificing a bunker and a platoon of infantry since my opponent bore down on them like a ton of bricks. Which was fine for me since that allowed my 76mm to kill 3-MKIV's and a halftrack before being KOed. When my reinforcements showed up his remaining 2 MkIV's were facing in the wrong direction and gave my T34 a rear end shot. By turn 24 I eliminated all of his armor and was in the process of doing likewise to his infantry when the game ended on the 28th turn.

As the German attacker I thought the battle was very easy. Attacking from my left and sweeping to the center leading with my infantry to spot his MLR then bearing in and engaging from long range with my armor as much as possible. Once I conquered his left flank I made my way onto the center but made sure to cover the 2 roads in the rear just in case any reinforcements showed up. When they did in the center I was able to KO 3 of his T26's in the first minute of arrival. As for the T34's when they arrived on the scene I made a point to direct all armor in the vincinity to attack enmasse and the T34's never had a chance. As for the Russian pillbox I suspected it would be on theright edge forest and had my Stugs take it out from a frontal approach. His 76mm was a bane for me killing 3 Stug's but I was able to silence it with my little mortars. In the end after he lost all of his armor and AT assets I allowed a ceasefire as it seemed pointless to continue slaughtering rest.

All in all I thought the scenario was exciting and surprising a I didn't expect any reinforcements for the Russian player and was happy when they showed up as it saved the day when I was Russian and as the German made the fight all the better.

All best

Patrick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well.

I think I bucked the trend slightly.

I got a draw as axis (against Demoss) and a win as Allies.

Im sure that the key to victory as Allies is to make a conscious desicion at start up not to contest all the flags.

Against Demoss, well he might disagree but if our game had lasted just 1 more turn Im sure I could have pulled a minor. In fact each extra turn would have been to my advantage as I still had considerable reserves of men and AFG's and Demoss was looking prety much used up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I felt the Russians had a slight advantage and was wondering how players were able to get a decisive victory as the Axis. I lost a draw 46% to 56% as the germans dispite having my opponent on his heels at the end of regulation. I did the board edge creep with three platoons on the German left and was able to destroy his defenses with tank fire before he spotted them. This enabled me to get behind "the farm" and the other flag and attack from front and rear. Then I moved on the village from the flank and front and captured it. I had a couple of AFVs and a platoon on the flag closest to the German line to at least contest it and keep it neutral. So here I sit with intact but very tired infantry and my armour very much intact within stiking distance of the last two flags. I knew his T-34 was there but it had been ineffective so far and was immobile. So, feeling cocky and a little (a lot) greedy I thought I would lay smoke on the flags on turn 30 and time my armour to arrive just in time for the game to end. The smoke landed in the village by mistake and my tanks and what little infantry I could conjole into action, walked right into his infantry reinforcements and a red hot T-34. I lost the two flags and casualties put me behind. Any lessons to be learned here?.

As the Russians, even knowing how and when the reinforcements from both side would arrive didn't affect my plan or setup. (We eliminated our third member and added an alternate halfway though, and after our first game was almost complete.)I set up a line running from the cemetary to the woods behind the village across the board to the right. The 76 mm was halfway between the cemetary and the woods with good fire lanes towards the hill flags and the approach to the village. The 45 pillbox was on the woods road facing the village to cover the road long range and hit anything in the village at close range. The MG bunkers were on the right board edge with infantry protection to lay down a crossfire between the the farm and the other flag. The TRPs were on the flags in the village and the farm. Everything else was scattered with good fields of fire supporting each other.(I put the ampoulets close to village and the grain and the flamethrowers in ambush positions in the grain thinking I could set the whole area on fire and force him into the open. It didn't come close to working) I waited until he took the flags, called arty down and with my ample reinforcements including T 34s, the 3 surviving T 26s and fresh infantry I pushed back his tired force. The key here though was the 76m gun. It killed tanks and infantry and survived the game.

In my experience, I give the edge to the Russians.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Against Demoss, well he might disagree but if our game had lasted just 1 more turn Im sure I could have pulled a minor. In fact each extra turn would have been to my advantage as I still had considerable reserves of men and AFG's and Demoss was looking prety much used up.
No, I do agree. Of course, that was turn 31, which I think is the maximum length anyway. ;) Although the tide turned my way around turn 26 or so with the locally victorious T-34 on my right, it was definitely halted on turn 30 as the T-34 ran out of AP ammo and started to turn back on turn 31 when it was destroyed. My mediocre defensive plan was saved by reinforcements that filled in the weaknesses, a rampaging T-34 with 5 vehicles & almost 30 casualties to his credit, and a candygram from a pioneer squad to Cpt. Kernow's Flamingo.

Had I had that amount of time as the Axis, I surely would have pushed my score into the low 70s by kicking the defenders off of the last flag - unless Tero suddenly decided to bring the surviving T-34 forward (unlikely, I think, or he'd have done it already) to do likewise to me, in which case it might have been a wash.

Here's the heart of what I sent off to CapitalistDogInChina (it's embellished slightly, of course ;) ):

Madam Chernieva,

I regret to inform you that your son, Sergeant Yuriy Cherniev, has perished this day in battle. He destroyed a halftrack and two tanks. The cowardly fascists sent two tank destroyers after him, and though his tank was damaged in the fighting, he killed them both. He then rampaged through the enemy infantry, mindless of his own safety, as enemy shells and petrol-filled bottles flew at him like snowflakes in a blizzard. After he had run out of anti-tank shells, a fascist gunner finally put a shell into his tank, killing him. You may rest assured that he not only did his duty, but was a shining example to all. Sergeant Cherniev died gloriously for the Rodina, and I hope that you may take some solace knowing that I have nominated him to receive the Order of Lenin posthumously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've had a look at the set-ups for Round 2 "Chernishaya Heights", and after comparing forces, I thought, "how in the name of the Fatherland is the German player supposed to pull this one off"? Then I noticed the German set-up zone completely encircles the Sov positions!

Now I'm wondering how the Sov's are gonna pull this one off? Guess we'll soon see...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, the soviet defense in round 2 looks pretty tricky.. I'm still agonizing how many hills to defend.. Quess I should make up my mind before the fascists have their parade in Moscow!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My grand plan as the Russians is to detonate a tactical nuclear weapon in the middle of the map, wiping everybody out. Since the Germans have numerical superiority, this should leave me with an easy win.

Now I just need to get to hacking the code.

;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys,

Just to comment on the reinforcement issue - we believed that you would play each of your opponents twice, once as either side in a double blind back to back battle. Therefore, emphasis was placed on reinforcements because they would have arrived at exactly the same time and would have been a surprise to both players. After round one started we realised you would play only once as each side, but against a different opponent each time.

The round two scenario (For those of you thru to the next round) will grant your wishes, and the briefing tells you that too.

Please feel free to tell us what you like, and don't like so we can make tailor made scenarios for you to enjoy in this tourney, and others to come.

Best wishes

CDIC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reinforcements can be nice, but the very big problem I see with them is that they can get thrown to the wolves. Imho it'd make more sense to have very long map and place the reinforcements away from action fairly early, so you have to leg it to the front. And no unrealistic "pop up turkey shoot" situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no problem with reinforcements, as long as they are listed in the scenario briefing. The problem with the rnd 1 scenario was that some people played the game through in hotseat mode before playing against their tourney opponent. So, some people knew about the reinforcements and others didn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...