Stalingrad Pack AAR Thread

[Berkut]

-----------Possible spoilers-----------------

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

I have not had time to play through all the scenarios in the Stalingrad pack and have just started with the first.

Into the void features an attempt to secure vital highground and an equally vital crossing over a river. A vast portion of the terrain is very open and any attempt to cross it will be observed from the hilltop.

Also of concern is a village near a dry riverbed.

Your initial force consists of a recce unit of 6 PZII's and a recce platoon. for artillery you have a 81mm FOO. Stukas are roaming around to take out any targets of opportunity.

Now I have played...or should I say started to play this on 6 occasions now. Each time I played saw 50-70% of the recce force being knocked out by two 47mm AT guns within 5 turns. Which I'm sure many would agree is some very accurate shooting at ranges in excess of 700 mtrs.

I am playing with the scenario defaults and full fog of war.

Has anyone here found similar problems with these scenarios or been able to beat the AT guns without significant losses to their force?

How does it handle when played as a pbem?

[demoss]

Berkut,

I've posted a moderately detailed AAR here .

Summary - total victory vs. AI. Do initial recon CAREFULLY. Move. Move. ASSAULT. Move. Move. Rinse. Repeat.

And don't worry about losing the Pz IIs. Don't throw them away, but don't shed a tear. A couple of mine actually survived - probably sheer luck.

[ December 23, 2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: demoss ]

[demoss]

The Library - AI surrendered, I believe for a Major Victory (don't remember exactly). Yes, that #@($*&!!! got one tank, and I lost a couple halftracks, but the Library was never seriously threatened (I really moved in the early going). I cleared the last set of daisy chains, which apparently convinced the big bad guy to come out and play with demo-totin' pioneers. Bad move. Also, a Pz IV F tried to RAM said big bad guy. REALLY bad move. Fortunately, we distracted him long enough for my untertank to make his escape.

For an amusing set of screenshots, look here .

[ichadwick]

Just a link to a 1941 map of Stalingrad that you might find interesting.

Ian

[Berkut]

Originally posted by demoss:

Berkut,

I've posted a moderately detailed AAR here .

Summary - total victory vs. AI. Do initial recon CAREFULLY. Move. Move. ASSAULT. Move. Move. Rinse. Repeat.

And don't worry about losing the Pz IIs. Don't throw them away, but don't shed a tear. A couple of mine actually survived - probably sheer luck.

More spoilers perhaps?---------------

I should not really have started this post so close to xmas. Just not possible for me to check in on the threads.

I have replayed it since and stopped around turn 18. I have noticed a couple of things that concerned me. This is not directed at the scenario itself but the way certain things are modelled in CMBB.

I was able to deal with the two 47mm AT guns and was in the process of dealing with farm 44 when my recce sqds spotted two more AT guns lurking in the woods near the collective.

I was also in the process of dealing with hill by moving a force of panzer III's and IV's with the long barreled IV's in overwatch positions when my half tracks came under very accurate fire from the treeline again. Despite 105 arty being laid down and the tank guns blazing my units could detect the sounds being made by three units (anti-tank rifles) from ranges of around 600-700 metres as they left the cover of the ridgeline.

They could not see them, but could hear them? at that range?...do these russians go everywhere accompanied by martial music?

The other problem was the fire from the rifles was extremely accurate considering the range and they were successful in knocking out 5 halftracks in two turns. So there was no possibilty to rush the flag in the farm, because there is another one of these little sods lurking in along side the two AT guns.

How accurate was this weapon? I don't think it had any advanced optics and at the ranges it must have been fired at; operating at the limits of it's effectiveness.

Has anyone else playing this scenario observed these situations?

[ December 28, 2002, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Berkut ]

[Berkut]

Originally posted by demoss:

Berkut,

I've posted a moderately detailed AAR here .

Summary - total victory vs. AI. Do initial recon CAREFULLY. Move. Move. ASSAULT. Move. Move. Rinse. Repeat.

And don't worry about losing the Pz IIs. Don't throw them away, but don't shed a tear. A couple of mine actually survived - probably sheer luck.

Well I restarted the game and went through 47 turns with only a minor victory to show for it

I did read your AAR, demoss. I would say a broadbrush approach than moderately detailed

I could replay it and replay it till I knew were everything is and get to the crossing faster but that sort of thing never appeals to me.

There are a lot of unpleasant surprises in this battle and when you consider the need to save a lot of your force for the exit, it can slow you down considerably.

Warning spoilers, detailed AAR now follows-----------------

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

1. expect to lose all but a couple of your pzII's you'll need these to smoke out the 45mm guns hidden in the tree line at the base of hill 171.

You could wait until your heavier tanks arrive but considering their value in this game you may not want to risk them.

I used the 81mm FOO to knock each gun out before sending him with the rest of the recce force to scout out farm 44.

2. You must eliminate the threat posed to your flanks by farm 44 before advancing to the hill.

It has two 45 AT guns and a platoon of russian riflemen for support. You could eliminate the guns and bypass the farm considering how worthless the flags are for the germans.

3. Russian anti-tank riflemen are setup in the treeline of hill 174 and one more in farm collective 44. These can and will knock out halftracks at considerable ranges and you simply cannot afford to lose to many of these. So you will have to clean these buggers out. They are as elusive as snipers so put smoke down and send some troops up in haltracks quickly and hunt them down. You could use arty, but I found that it was not effective as they were well spaced out & well back from the treeline with a clear LOS of the steppe. So use smoke and race a platoon of PzGrenadiers up there quickly.

4. The hill can simply be overrun with the firepower you have. The russian will fold quickly. but do not be too hasty in going over that hill.

5. Across the Olnye there are two 76.2mm guns they are very accurate so be careful. I sought hulldown positions with PZIV's and used their HE to knock them out, but this exposed me to...

6. Armour...yes there is some and yes they capable of chewing you up if you are careless. I was able to deal with them but lost 4 very valuable tanks in the process.

7. The river crossing itself is clear of anything that can harm your tanks. but there are two 25mm cannon in the woods nearby and they will make mincemeat of your halftracks. If you are lucky you will have time to spot them and knock them out. I lost two before putting down smoke...more time & points lost. Also pray you don't have any vehicles bog down in the crossing....if that happened there it would really make things frustrating.

In the end I simply ran out of time and could not get everything off the map. Losing vehicles that need to exit is also badnews considering how much needed to be got off. The effect of the stukas on the enemy was negligible, there were also incidents were they strafed my forces, I'm just lucky they had used their bombs.

It is winnable...perhaps not the first time you play it, as stated earlier there are nasty surprises for the axis player.

[demoss]

A couple points here. I did apply some artillery fire against the antitank assets (and the infantry at the farm, which I didn't know about at the time) early on. It's not foolproof, certainly, but it helps. The AT guns themselves, though, CAN be taken out relatively safely by your tanks. The Pz III & IV can duel the guns from the ridge and win (even the Pz IIs can get lucky - I had one take out two of the 45 mm ATs). This is also a good use for the SPW 251/2s, using infantry HQs as spotters.

You mentioned losing 5 halftracks to AT rifles in two turns; I never saw anything like that happen. Were the halftracks stopped? They should NEVER be stopped under AT rifle fire - I used fast move exclusively. If you find that the AT rifles can see you where you thought they couldn't, well, that can be a problem.

I meant moderately detailed in light of the fact that I was trying to avoid spoilers. I couldn't have said much more without giving things away.

[Berkut]

Originally posted by demoss:

You mentioned losing 5 halftracks to AT rifles in two turns; I never saw anything like that happen. Were the halftracks stopped? They should NEVER be stopped under AT rifle fire - I used fast move exclusively. If you find that the AT rifles can see you where you thought they couldn't, well, that can be a problem.

This occured in the game I played up till turn 18 (see earlier post concerning at rifles)2 were hit on the move, one was hit while in the cover of the dry-river bed. the others were hit when I thought they were in cover in some trees. I checked LOS and was seeing ranges of 700+ metres. The last time I played a surviving PzII was hit after cleaning out farm 44 by a rifle from the treeline of hill 174. I would guesstimate that range nearer 800+ metres. It got a partial penetration :eek: and panicked the crew.

I had to hunt down all three of the little bastards using the technique described in my AAR...wonder why they phased a weapon like that out if it could do that kind of damage at those ranges...did they have tungsten shortages as well? or is this weapon a little too accurate?

I have since moved on to when worlds collide. Have you noticed that tanks with tungsten ap rounds seem reluctant to use them?

I remember a similar problem in CMBO

[ December 30, 2002, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Berkut ]

[demoss]

I have since moved on to when worlds collide. Have you noticed that tanks with tungsten ap rounds seem reluctant to use them?

It seems to be dependent on a few things. I've seen tanks hoard them like gold, but I've also seen vehicles fire them first thing - not even an AP ranging shot. The latter seems to happen primarily when standard AP isn't even going to dent the target (PzJg I vs. KV). I suspect experience also matters.

As for the AT rifles, well, they were phased out because halftracks weren't what really terrified people. Sure, AT rifles can kill halftracks. What can't? I think you got unlucky to lose as many as you did that quickly, but three of those five were due to an erroneous perception of safety.

[Andreas]

BUMP

I entered 'A morning commute' and 'Waltzing Matilda' at the Depot, in case someone feels inclined to review them.

[Andreas]

Just finished 'One final stab'. very highly recommended city battle. Got a minor victory as Soviets, my opponent thought he had won, and so did I.

Nice one, don't waste it on the AI.